# Game of Thrones 6.01 "The Red Woman" 4/24/2016 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950 "2016-04-23T21:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/181 "2016-04-26T21:48:41Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Well, no, _she_ hasn’t been established to have those powers. She witnessed it, and her reaction was to say out loud: “That’s impossible.” Seems pretty definitive that she doesn’t have them. (Yet?) > > When she asked the guy how it was done, he didn’t know, so that wasn’t exactly helpful in terms of her learning how. Well no, he actually described everything he did. What he didn’t know was why it worked. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/182 "2016-04-26T22:00:05Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Was I the only one who did not recognize Bran in the previews? If we ever see Rickon again, he’ll probably have a full beard and **Osha’s baby** on his arm. Long live the Once and Future King of the North!!! ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/183 "2016-04-26T22:09:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There were only four survivors of Mormont’s expedition north of the wall. Nearly all of the survivors of the Battle of the Fist of the First Men were killed in the Mutiny of Craster’s Keep or Jon’s subsequent attack on it. The four were Jon, who wasn’t at the Battle of the Fist, and Sam, Grenn, and Edd, who survived both the Battle and the Mutiny. With Grenn dead and Sam gone, Jon, Edd, and the survivors of Hardhome would have been the only ones at Castle Black to have actually seen White Walkers. Fair enough, most of remaining ones weren’t there, but people in this thread seem to be forgetting the battle. The white walkers are certainly not a legend to them - considering they’re the remnants of a losing battle where most of the men of the night’s watch were killed. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/184 "2016-04-26T22:15:01Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Well, no, _she_ hasn’t been established to have those powers. She witnessed it, and her reaction was to say out loud: “That’s impossible.” Seems pretty definitive that she doesn’t have them. (Yet?) No, that’s not the way the conversation went. I just rewatched the scene. She’s not there when Beric is resurrected, she arrives afterward. When she examines Beric, she asks Thoros “How many times has the Lord brought him back?,” indicating that she already knows the Lord can do this. When Thoros responds “Six,” it’s to _that_ that she responds “That’s not possible.” She pointedly says to Thoros “You should not have this power,” not that nobody has this power. She’s incredulous not that Beric has been brought back, but that an apparent faithless wreck like Thoros could do it, and do it so many times. And Thoros tells her explicitly how he did it. He says “I knelt beside his cold body and said the old words. Not because I believed in them, but because he was my friend and he was dead, and they were the only words I knew. And for the first time in my life the Lord replied.” He knows what he did, but isn’t sure why it worked. It’s definitive she knows that the Lord can bring people back, and Thoros has explained how he did it. We don’t know for sure that she can do it, or that she’s brought someone back previously. But we do know that she has strong supernatural powers, so there’s no reason to think that she would be unable to do what Thoros could do. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/185 "2016-04-26T22:18:47Z")
Interesting. EDIT: [Here’s the scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEj1aN_Rmj0&t=2m46s). I don’t interpret it the way you do, but I see how it could be read either way. I read her “It’s not possible” as it not being possible at all, not that’s it’s perfectly fine to bring someone back once but six times is beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/186 "2016-04-26T22:19:27Z")
Melisandre hasn’t demonstrated resurrection magic, but she has demonstrated illusion magic. What if she doesn’t resurrect him, but instead impersonates him as if she resurrected him? The actor would be the same, but he would be playing a different character - Melissandre acting as him. That would definitely break people’s expectations that he’ll be revived, but while still having the Jon Snow plotline continue in a way. Then she could regain control of the night’s watch (now with resurrection credit!) and continue her fight against the walkers. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/187 "2016-04-26T22:27:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Melisandre hasn’t demonstrated resurrection magic, but she has demonstrated illusion magic. > > What if she doesn’t resurrect him, but instead impersonates him as if she resurrected him? The actor would be the same, but he would be playing a different character - Melissandre acting as him. > > That would definitely break people’s expectations that he’ll be revived, but while still having the Jon Snow plotline continue in a way. Then she could regain control of the night’s watch (now with resurrection credit!) and continue her fight against the walkers. That’s a pretty good idea. Although they’re still probably going to go with the more straightforward resurrection theory. Still really interested in what develops with Melisandre, since nobody can really be sure at this point what her game is. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/188 "2016-04-26T22:33:55Z")
My theory before the season started was Mel was going to be locked up with Jon’s body in an ice cell\*. The NW thinking he’d revive, kill her and then the NW would come in and kill Jon. Only to find Mel old, dead and withered, Jon’s body gone and the cell torn asunder. That…will probably not happen now. \*Why? Revenge for being batshit crazy. “What do we do with her” (Alliser looks at her for a second) “Lock her up with him” -That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/189 "2016-04-26T22:40:31Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I read her “It’s not possible” as it not being possible at all, not that’s it’s perfectly fine to bring someone back once but six times is beyond the pale. She’s already acknowledged she knows it’s possible by asking “How many times has the Lord brought him back?” Otherwise she would have said something like “How is it possible that a man is still alive with wounds like this?” Whatever the case, it establishes 1) that a Red Priest can bring someone back from the dead; 2) Melisandre knows this; 3) Melisandre knows the words that Thoros used to call on the Lord of Light; and 4) Melisandre appears to be able to do miraculous things with the help of the Lord of Light. There is every reason to think that she would be capable of doing what Thoros has done repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/190 "2016-04-26T23:20:19Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Melisandre hasn’t demonstrated resurrection magic, but she has demonstrated illusion magic. She created a shadow demon baby. Ask Renly if it was just an illusion. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/191 "2016-04-26T23:45:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > She’s already acknowledged she knows it’s possible by asking “How many times has the Lord brought him back?” Otherwise she would have said something like “How is it possible that a man is still alive with wounds like this?” Again, that’s not how I read that scene. I interpret her question as conveying that being brought back from death isn’t possible. Which she then explicitly says with her very next statement. > [@](#): > > Whatever the case, it establishes 1) that a Red Priest can bring someone back from the dead; 2) Melisandre knows this; 3) Melisandre knows the words that Thoros used to call on the Lord of Light; and 4) Melisandre appears to be able to do miraculous things with the help of the Lord of Light. There is every reason to think that she would be capable of doing what Thoros has done repeatedly. This is all reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/192 "2016-04-27T00:06:02Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > ?..Game of Thrones depicts a quite rigid society where protocol, oaths, and tradition are very important. For that reason one would expect the Night’s Watch to follow the procedures they have for thousands of years. > > It’s possible that Davos could assume a leadership role without being elected, but then he wouldn’t be Lord Commander I really have no view about Davos being Lord Commander, but your larger point is an interesting one. While the society is indeed rigid with respect to protocol and tradition, you can see all of that breaking down all over the place. I haven’t read the books so I could be off base here, but I think that story is purposely set in a very dynamic period in Westeros history. Remember that the Targaryens had ruled for hundreds (thousands?) of years and all the family alliances and hierarchies presumably started with them. Robert’s Rebellion just happened a couple of decades ago, so I think that alliances and traditions are all being called into question. How much do most people really respect Robert’s authority and the resulting new world order? The Targaryens were the only rulers that their families had known for generations. The ambitious all see opportunities to elevate themselves or secure more power. And winter is coming. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/193 "2016-04-27T00:39:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Of all the plot holes and issues that people have come up with the one that bothers me most is how the Sand Snakes show up in King’s Landing to perforate the Dornish king’s son… Also why did Jaime have a gilt coffin conveniently on board to hold Myrcella’s body? :dubious: Did they stop along the way up from Sunspear to pick it up, or is that just a standard thing ships transporting VIPs keep in inventory? ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/194 "2016-04-27T00:51:47Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Also why did Jaime have a gilt coffin conveniently on board to hold Myrcella’s body? :dubious: Did they stop along the way up from Sunspear to pick it up, or is that just a standard thing ships transporting VIPs keep in inventory? All wooden sailing ships would have a carpenter aboard for necessary repairs, so building a coffin is not a problem. And I think the ‘gold’ part was a shroud, just gold colored material not gilt or gold foil or anything special. Why they happened to have gold cloth available, who knows? Likely that was a trading ship, and specialty cloths are traditional trading goods, so that doesn’t challenge my suspension of disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/195 "2016-04-27T00:52:16Z")
Did he? It looked to me like she was just draped with some fabric as a shroud. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/196 "2016-04-27T01:17:05Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That was exactly my point about Melisandre and the abilities of Red Priests. She’s already been established as having the powers that are needed to bring Jon back, so she’s not a _deus ex machina_. Pretty much any other way to bring him back would constitute a _deus ex machina_, since it hasn’t previously been hinted at. > > In any case, bringing Jon back as a Dire Wolf would limit his future ability to form alliances by marriage even more severely than his Night’s Watch oath.😉 He could form an alliance with Ramsey’s hounds. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/197 "2016-04-27T01:18:23Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Did he? It looked to me like she was just draped with some fabric as a shroud. In [this recap](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-6-episode-1-recap.html) of the episode, there’s a photo of Jaime standing on the deck of that boat, with what clearly appears to be a shrouded Myrcella behind him. No gilt coffin. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/198 "2016-04-27T01:32:37Z")
It annoys me when people call her “Khaleesi” as if it were her first name. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/199 "2016-04-27T02:31:09Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > It annoys me when people call her “Khaleesi” as if it were her first name. Wouldn’t that be just like calling her Your Majesty? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/200 "2016-04-27T02:50:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > In [this recap](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-6-episode-1-recap.html) of the episode, there’s a photo of Jaime standing on the deck of that boat, with what clearly appears to be a shrouded Myrcella behind him. No gilt coffin. Thanks, I take back my comments. It’s clearly just a shroud (of gold) draped over her body. I guess her crown of gold was just her hair. It’s Tommen’s turn next. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950.md?page=11)