# Game of Thrones 6.01 "The Red Woman" 4/24/2016 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950 "2016-04-23T21:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/121 "2016-04-26T06:10:15Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Possible, sure. But it would be terrible writing. Not really - it doesn’t matter if Jon’s been shown to do it or not. We know it’s possible from Bran. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/122 "2016-04-26T06:31:41Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Of all the plot holes and issues that people have come up with the one that bothers me most is how the Sand Snakes show up in King’s Landing to perforate the Dornish king’s son. Makes NO sense. I think they hitched a ride on the sail of the same U-boat as Indiana Jones. And Indy was like, “Oh, you have a whip, too? Cool, you can stay up here with me.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/123 "2016-04-26T12:09:26Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I don’t think this show cares very much about upsetting people while showing terrible things happening. They killed Sansa’s dog and he was innocent of anything, as dogs go. I think they do care. The death of both “dogs” killed wasn’t shown directly (contrarily to that of hundred of humans) _and_ in both cases, it was an "innocent"and helpless (at the moment) creature killed by the fault of a really bad guy (Joffrey and Frey). Still many people were very upset about their demise (again, despite all the innocent people who die in horrible ways in the show), as, in my experience, it happens every time a dog is killed in a show/movie. Showing the good Brienne dispatching dogs in some bloody way wasn’t going to happen, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/124 "2016-04-26T12:14:17Z")
And anyway knowing exactly what happened to the dogs isn’t critical to the scene. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/125 "2016-04-26T12:18:45Z")
It’s also probably harder to do good action scenes that result in (simulated) dead dogs than with stunt men. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/126 "2016-04-26T12:23:06Z")
Little-known fact: Old Melisandre was actually played by Andy Serkis in a motion-capture suit. (Okay, it’s not a fact, but I’m wondering if it could take flight on Facebook or Twitter or something.) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/127 "2016-04-26T12:25:07Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > > [@EllisDee](#): > > > > Possible, sure. But it would be terrible writing. > > Not really - it doesn’t matter if Jon’s been shown to do it or not. We know it’s possible from Bran. We’ve been shown that it’s possible _for_ Bran. It’s also been implied that it’s an extraordinarily rare ability. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/128 "2016-04-26T12:47:29Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I think they do care. The death of both “dogs” killed wasn’t shown directly (contrarily to that of hundred of humans) _and_ in both cases, it was an "innocent"and helpless (at the moment) creature killed by the fault of a really bad guy (Joffrey and Frey). Still many people were very upset about their demise (again, despite all the innocent people who die in horrible ways in the show), as, in my experience, it happens every time a dog is killed in a show/movie. > > Showing the good Brienne dispatching dogs in some bloody way wasn’t going to happen, IMHO. Do you guys need everything spelled out for you??? Obvioussssslyyyyy…the dogs were stuffed with Kennel Master Daughter. They were too full to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/129 "2016-04-26T13:08:57Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > There’s no reason to assume the conversation where she died took place immediately after the ship set sail. There’s actually real reason to believe it was a while into the trip, giving Jamie time to gather his courage to tell his daughter that he’s a sister-fucker. Except that’s not how it’s portrayed. We see Myrcella dying in Jaime’s arms, and then cut to the Sand Snakes still standing on the dock after saying their goodbye’s to Jaime and Myrcella, watching the boat sailing away. Ellaria’s nose starts to bleed. One of the Snakes tosses her a handkerchief and she takes it and wipes the blood from her nose, and then wipes the remaining poison from her lips. (That’s how she poisoned Myrcella–with a kiss.) ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/130 "2016-04-26T14:21:00Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Except that’s not how it’s portrayed. We see Myrcella dying in Jaime’s arms, and then cut to the Sand Snakes still standing on the dock after saying their goodbye’s to Jaime and Myrcella, watching the boat sailing away. Ellaria’s nose starts to bleed. One of the Snakes tosses her a handkerchief and she takes it and wipes the blood from her nose, and then wipes the remaining poison from her lips. (That’s how she poisoned Myrcella–with a kiss.) Yes. And as I recall one of her snakes hands her a tiny bottle of the antidote that she immediately downs. ---
**Author:** ![Grsz11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grsz11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grsz11)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/131 "2016-04-26T14:52:59Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > My assumption is whatever happens Davos will take the black. He has nothing else. My first thought was this whole plot would set him up to be Lord Commander. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/132 "2016-04-26T15:09:52Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Yes. And as I recall one of her snakes hands her a tiny bottle of the antidote that she immediately downs. I watched that episode this weekend and you are correct. It was established the poison acts slowly so she coated her own lips, poisoned the princess and then took the antidote herself. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/133 "2016-04-26T15:32:07Z")
Has anybody seen Seth Meyer’s lesson on why Melisandre is not a good invite for a baby shower? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/-5C6kG57J7Q/maxresdefault.jpg "Melisandre at a Baby Shower - Late Night with Seth Meyers") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5C6kG57J7Q) ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/134 "2016-04-26T15:34:22Z")
I had no idea where the sand snake snuff scene was taking place, so the improbable logistics just went whoooosh over my head. I’m glad to see the Dothraki back, and enjoyed the eye-rolling “…fine…top 5 things…” scene, even if the comedic relief was a bit jarring. However, I can’t work up too much concern for Danny’s fate: she’s got a flying deus-ex-machina ride home any time she wants. (I’m assuming she can psychically whistle for Drogon) Resurrection is like Chekhov’s Gun: if you bring a minor character back from the dead in Act 1, you damn well better bring back a major character in Act 3. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/135 "2016-04-26T15:54:17Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Not really - it doesn’t matter if Jon’s been shown to do it or not. We know it’s possible from Bran. I agree this would be terrible writing. There hasn’t been the slightest indication that Jon can warg previously. As **jsc1953** notes, the principle of Chekhov’s Gun points unequivocally to Melisandre. -The resurrection(s) of Beric Dondarion, a relatively minor character, have little relevance to the plot except to establish that Red Priests/Priestesses can raise the dead. -On her previous visit, Melisandre showed a strong interest in Jon Snow. -Melisandre shows up again immediately before Jon’s death. She doesn’t have to; her plot line could have been concluded by Stannis killing her when he realized he had killed Shireen for nothing, or by Davos when he found out. The resurrection has to happen pretty soon, in any case. It can’t take to the end of the season. Two deadlines are in effect: Ser Alliser’s and the fact that Jon will come back as a wight if he stays dead. With Melisandre, you don’t have to pull a _deux ex machina_ out of a hat, as you would with Jon warging. It’s already been established that she has the power to bring Jon back. People use the fact that surprising and unexpected twists have taken place in the plot to mean absolutely anything can happen. But that’s only true with writing that doesn’t “play fair” with the audience. So far, I haven’t seen any plot development that completely went against the major dramatic rules of storytelling. > [@Grsz11](#): > > My first thought was this whole plot would set him up to be Lord Commander. Since the Lord Commander is elected, it seems unlikely that they would elect someone they barely know. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/136 "2016-04-26T15:58:42Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I agree this would be terrible writing. There hasn’t been the slightest indication that Jon can warg previously. > > The principle of Chekhov’s gun points unequivocally to Melisandre. > > -The resurrection(s) of Beric Dondarion, a relatively minor character, have little relevance to the plot except to establish that Red Priests/Priestesses can raise the dead. > > -On her previous visit, Melisandre showed a strong interest in Jon Snow. > > -Melisandre shows up again immediately before Jon’s death. She doesn’t have to; her plot line could have been concluded by Stannis killing her when he realized he had killed Shireen for nothing, or by Davos when he found out. > > With Melisandre, you don’t have to pull a _deux ex machina_ out of a hat, as you would with Jon warging. It’s already been established that she has the power to bring Jon back. Agreed, but it’s not really a deus ex machina if it’s been established in the plot well before it was needed, is it? > [@](#): > > Since the Lord Commander is elected, it seems unlikely that they would elect someone they barely know. Also agreed, but depending on how things shake out with Team Jon vs. Team Alliser, the Night’s Watch could end up getting whittled down to Team Jon and Davos. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/137 "2016-04-26T16:17:41Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Agreed, but it’s not really a deus ex machina if it’s been established in the plot well before it was needed, is it? That was exactly my point about Melisandre and the abilities of Red Priests. She’s already been established as having the powers that are needed to bring Jon back, so she’s not a _deus ex machina_. Pretty much any other way to bring him back would constitute a _deus ex machina_, since it hasn’t previously been hinted at. In any case, bringing Jon back as a Dire Wolf would limit his future ability to form alliances by marriage even more severely than his Night’s Watch oath.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/138 "2016-04-26T16:29:18Z")
Does Davos know that Shireen and Stannis and most of his army are all dead? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/139 "2016-04-26T16:30:06Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Does Davos know that Shireen and Stannis and most of his army are all dead? Yes – at the end of last season, he asked Melisandre. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950/140 "2016-04-26T16:31:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That was exactly my point about Melisandre and the abilities of Red Priests. She’s already been established as having the powers that are needed to bring Jon back, so she’s not a _deus ex machina_. Pretty much any other way to bring him back would constitute a _deus ex machina_, since it hasn’t previously been hinted at. Weeeeeeeeeeeell there’s also the theory I posited back in post 33: > [@Shakester](#): > > Insta-theory I just came up with: Edd went off to find reinforcements for the Jon Snow Memorial Brigade. > > Maybe, instead of fetching some Wildlings, he runs into the Brotherhood Without Banners and brings back that well-known resurrectionist, Thoros of Myr. Maybe Melisandre _can’t_ resurrect Jon. What we’ve seen indicates that Thoros can resurrect people, and we’re _assuming_ that it’s the Red God doing it through the prayers of his clergy. What if Thoros is the only resurrector in Westeros, and he just _credits_ the Red God for the magic? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-01-the-red-woman-4-24-2016-show-discussion/752950.md?page=8)