# Game of Thrones 6.03 "Oathbreaker" 5/8/2016 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 8, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345 "2016-05-08T22:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/241 "2016-05-11T18:42:08Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > And there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. In most shows I wouldn’t blink. But because GoT has been so enthusiastically willing to show nudity earlier, including with this same actress and character, it did for a moment take me out of the show. For a moment I wasn’t enjoying the exploits of the characters, I was thinking about behind the scenes facts involving the performers. Actually, I don’t disagree with you on that. My first thought on seeing that scene was “Dang, Emilia must be coming up in the world. She’s re-negotiated her contract.”😃 > [@](#): > > Granted, that’s a super minor concern, and I would never have brought it up myself, but it’s definitely not just that I want to ogle Emilia Clarke’s goodies and am going to express my discontent that I did not get to do so. It also gave me momentary pause. But the writers have given me a lot worse WTF moments than Emilia’s non-nudity. Calling it “rotten,” “bad faith,” and likening her to Darth Vader seem rather overwrought. 😉 In any case, if the show runners had considered it so important, I assume that they could have used a body double as in Headey’s case. Evidently they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/242 "2016-05-11T18:44:25Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > But my point is that that just needs to be acknowledged as “YOUR” problem. Not the shows, not Emilia Clark’s, etc. > > People are making this out to be some character flaw of an actress which is fucking bizarre. I think it’s fair to say that it’s at least partially the show’s problem. They could have used a body double. They could have not bothered having the character get naked at all. That said, it’s a super duper minor issue. But the way the show was produced and presented to the audience did, for many people in the viewing audience, cause at least a momentary interruption of suspension of disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/243 "2016-05-11T18:47:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Calling it “rotten,” “bad faith,” and likening her to Darth Vader seem rather overwrought. 😉 Agreed. To the extent that I care and that I “blame” anyone, with “blame” being far too strong a word here, I blame the show runners. They are given a set of constraints to work with… budgetary, monetary, logistical, etc. In this case, one of their constraints is that one of their lead actresses won’t do nudity, _as is absolutely her right_. The way they chose to work around that constraint, in this particular case, worked out poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/244 "2016-05-11T18:52:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > [Davos] had prefaced that remark by saying he was not much of a fighter. When he said “apologies for what you’re about to see,” he meant how poor a swordsman he is. Ah, I see. That makes sense now. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/245 "2016-05-11T19:36:59Z")
My enjoyment of any given episode based on the warnings at the beginning. If it doesn’t mention nudity and sexual content, I know I will not like the episode. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/246 "2016-05-11T19:39:33Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > My enjoyment of any given episode based on the warnings at the beginning. If it doesn’t mention nudity and sexual content, I know I will not like the episode. :rolleyes: Yeah. And if it’s not just “Violence” but “\*Graphic \*Violence” then I know to brace myself for impalement and skull crushing.l ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/247 "2016-05-11T19:54:11Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Maybe. However, that’s a really really stupid ruse. There’s gotta be a 70% chance that Ramsay just murders Rickon on the spot. Then a 25% chance he tortures Rickon for months and then murders him. It’s like playing Russian Roulette and insisting you take the first 5 turns. It’s just a guess that it’s a ruse, mostly based on my hunch that audiences aren’t really in the mood to see a season of Ramsay slowly torturing Rickon, but are eager to see him get his comeuppance and see the Starks get a win every once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/248 "2016-05-11T20:35:25Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Maybe. However, that’s a really really stupid ruse. There’s gotta be a 70% chance that Ramsay just murders Rickon on the spot. Then a 25% chance he tortures Rickon for months and then murders him. It’s like playing Russian Roulette and insisting you take the first 5 turns. It was really stupid for Jaime, a one-handed man with one of the most recognizable faces in Westeros, to try to sneak into Dorne to rescue Myrcella (as Bronn pointed out). It was extremely stupid for Stannis to expose his army in front of Winterfell without scouting the situation first. It was breathtakingly stupid for the Night’s Watch mutineers not to have a single sentry watching out for a wildling attack, even though suspicion of the wildlings was why they killed Jon. (And how stupid do you have to be to allow a Giant to sneak up on you?) “It’s stupid” is not a reliable guide to whether or not something may happen on the show. “It would be dramatic” is much better guide.😉 > [@madmonk28](#): > > It’s just a guess that it’s a ruse, mostly based on my hunch that audiences aren’t really in the mood to see a season of Ramsay slowly torturing Rickon, but are eager to see him get his comeuppance and see the Starks get a win every once in a while. Right. As I said before, having Ramsay gain a new Stark hostage immediately after Sansa escapes would just be pointless plot churning. This can’t play out as nothing more than a game of “Fortunately/Unfortunately.” ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/249 "2016-05-11T20:35:36Z")
I suppose the question is, what use is Rickon to Ramsay other then to quietly kill? Sansa was good because she could produce an heir that was half-Stark. Rickon is nothing more than a threat to his claim. He wouldn’t want anyone to know that Rickon is still alive, and killing him publicly will do more harm than good. It’s not like Rickon knows anything that could be found out by torturing him. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/250 "2016-05-11T20:47:22Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I suppose the question is, what use is Rickon to Ramsay other then to quietly kill? Sansa was good because she could produce an heir that was half-Stark. Rickon is nothing more than a threat to his claim. He wouldn’t want anyone to know that Rickon is still alive, and killing him publicly will do more harm than good. It’s not like Rickon knows anything that could be found out by torturing him. Rickon knows that Bran is still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/251 "2016-05-11T21:12:42Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Rickon knows that Bran is still alive. Yeah, but let’s face it … bran is a little flaky. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/252 "2016-05-11T21:14:39Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Rickon knows that Bran is still alive. Theon told Ramsay that years ago. Roose even sent Locke to find the two boys. If Ramsay thinks Jon may attack, Rickon could have value as a hostage. But I agree Ramsay is better off just killing him. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/253 "2016-05-11T21:43:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I won’t judge or criticize a woman for changing her mind about what she’s comfortable with regarding her own body under any circumstances. I’d rather Ms. Clark (and any other person) feels comfortable with what is happening to her body (including who gets to see it at any given time) than my favorite TV show be slightly better at the expense of anyone’s comfort about what’s happening to their bodies. I’ve always been baffled by the idea that sex work - or not even sex work but just being nude in this case - was so much more vulnerable and sacrosant and compromising than any other job. I hear all the time from camgirls who get naked on webcam how the job is super degrading and damages their soul, and everyone rushes in to protect the poor abused girls who make a ton of money showing some skin from the safety of their homes and comforts them like they’re a fucking holocaust survivor. You’re selling your time and your physical presence regardless of what the job is. Lots of people work far harder, more miserable jobs for less pay than any sex work. But somehow everyone has decided that anything involving sexuality automatically trumps anything else. It’s very strange to me. Being an actor can be hard work, I’m sure. To use my previous examples, staging fight scenes is probably pretty hard work. You’re doing the choreography over and over, it’s very physical work, you’re burdened by armor, working under the hot sun or under hot lights, trying takes over and over again. But if you’re a fighter in a tv series, it’s part of your fucking job and you do it. If the guys playing Sandor Clegane and Bronn and Jaime Lannister all suddenly decided that it was hard work and they didn’t want to do it anymore, and they put it in their contract, no one would be rushing in to say “I support their right to decide what to do with their bodies!” even though it’s a lot more gruelling than showing nudity. Everyone would be saying “what the fuck, it’s part of your job to do that, you signed on knowing that, you’ve done it before, and by refusing to do it now you’re making them stage the scenes in awkward, immersion-breaking ways” But oh no, nudity, that’s apparently greater than any physical toil one can undergo and automatically deserves protection no matter the context, we all have to act like it’s the worst thing that could happen to a person and they’re brave and wise for deciding not to do their job anymore. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > John Snow was the other naked character in that episode. It doesn’t make narrative sense for him to be lying bollock naked on the slab. He was killed in his clothes and at some point his loyal compadres decided that the best, most dignified thing to do with his corpse while they waited in the room with it for hours was to strip the clothes off entirely and leave them off. Why? > > Because it makes dramatic sense. He’s died and been reborn. He comes into the world naked, a new man, free of all his old encumbrances. It neatly foreshadows his surrender of the Commander’s Cloak. It is entirely fitting with the scene that he be naked. That’s a good point, I hadn’t thought of it that way. He should’ve been nude and shown to be more vulnerable. In this case, though, his first nude scene wouldn’t have been in until 6 years into the show, and they might not have ever raised the issue when he was originally cast, so there was probably no bait and switch. > [@Colibri](#): > > I’m not aware that people are complaining about how Cersei’s walk of shame was made less dramatic by using a 27-year old body double instead of an actress over 40, like both Lena Headey and Cersei’s character. The walk would have been even more shameful for Cersei if she had to expose an aging sagging body. Using a younger actress made it more titillating and less degrading. This is actually a fair point, but don’t you think it’s a little nitpicky to get into the degree of tit sagging? They didn’t frame the scene at all to be titillating, and I actually didn’t guess that the body on display was that much younger than the character of Cersei - I’ve always thought the character of Cersei was in her mid 30s (if Joffrey is like 14-15, it’s unlikely she’s going to have her first son at much older than 18), and that’s a plausible enough body for someone in good health and good shape for her mid thirties, although maybe a stretch for a mother of three. But that scene isn’t jarring. It’s not like she has the body of an 18 year old supermodel. I don’t mind that they did the head swap. I don’t mind that I didn’t see Lena’s tits. The body-swapping was seamless and I didn’t notice it, so it’s not the sort of incongruent thing that broke the immersion for me. And in fact, if they had done the scene in this episode, putting Emilia Clarke’s head on someone else’s body, assuming their body wasn’t discongruent with what we’ve seen before, that would’ve been fine with me too. It’s not that I have a burning need to see Emilia Clarke’s tits (and if I did, I’ve got plenty of previous episodes with it), it’s that it’s distracting when we’re clearly working around it. Incidentally, there were [much more jarring instances](http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/a/a9/Daario_and_dany_in_bed.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150413185951) of non-nudity in previous seasons. I even think in one episode she tells someone else about how it’s silly to be shy about nudity and sexuality, that doth’raki aren’t ashamed of their bodies at all and make love under the stars for all of the khalasar to see, and then goes all soap-opera-sheet with Daario in a scene where her intimacy and vulnerability to him are important. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/254 "2016-05-11T22:12:19Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > John Snow was the other naked character in that episode. It doesn’t make narrative sense for him to be lying bollock naked on the slab. He was killed in his clothes and at some point his loyal compadres decided that the best, most dignified thing to do with his corpse while they waited in the room with it for hours was to strip the clothes off entirely and leave them off. Why? Because Melisandre washed his body. That’s done all the time in the real world: [Last offices - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathing_the_dead) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/255 "2016-05-11T22:25:54Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You’re selling your time and your physical presence regardless of what the job is. Lots of people work far harder, more miserable jobs for less pay than any sex work. But somehow everyone has decided that anything involving sexuality automatically trumps anything else. It’s very strange to me. Have you ever been a sex worker yourself?:dubious: > [@](#): > > This is actually a fair point, but don’t you think it’s a little nitpicky to get into the degree of tit sagging? They didn’t frame the scene at all to be titillating, and I actually didn’t guess that the body on display was that much younger than the character of Cersei - I’ve always thought the character of Cersei was in her mid 30s (if Joffrey is like 14-15, it’s unlikely she’s going to have her first son at much older than 18), and that’s a plausible enough body for someone in good health and good shape for her mid thirties, At least in the TV show, Tommen is theoretically over 18 (because they don’t want to imply underage sex with Margaery) so that Joffrey must have been around 20. So she would be in her late 30s at least. And Cersei is alcoholic and probably doesn’t get a lot of exercise, so she’s not going to be in good shape. But that’s not the point. They could have chosen someone whose body was clearly past its prime, as Cersei would have been, and went with someone who had a younger body. > [@](#): > > although maybe a stretch for a mother of three. You said it, not me.😉 > [@](#): > > And in fact, if they had done the scene in this episode, putting Emilia Clarke’s head on someone else’s body, assuming their body wasn’t discongruent with what we’ve seen before, that would’ve been fine with me too. It’s not that I have a burning need to see Emilia Clarke’s tits (and if I did, I’ve got plenty of previous episodes with it), it’s that it’s distracting when we’re clearly working around it. Then your complaint is really with the showrunners, not Emilia. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/256 "2016-05-11T22:34:24Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Have you ever been a sex worker yourself?:dubious: No, but I would snatch up the opportunity in an instant if I could. So would every roofer or coal miner or really anyone with a shitty job that’s much more taxing than sitting in front of a webcam and showing your naked body from the safety and comfort of your own home. The idea that sex work is uniquely awful is puritanical bullshit. It’s the idea that women’s sexuality is some sacred, hidden thing and that women are damaged by using it, even if it’s totally voluntary and for their own happiness. Being a street hooker is undoubtedly an unpleasant job, but we treat all sex work, including the safest, cushiest job in the world of camgirl as being soul-destroying. It’s ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Then your complaint is really with the showrunners, not Emilia. It’s both. Primarily her, since they’re not the ones who decided to break an agreement when the other side had no recourse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/257 "2016-05-11T22:51:07Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > No, but I would snatch up the opportunity in an instant if I could. So would every roofer or coal miner or really anyone with a shitty job that’s much more taxing than sitting in front of a webcam and showing your naked body from the safety and comfort of your own home. > > The idea that sex work is uniquely awful is puritanical bullshit. It’s the idea that women’s sexuality is some sacred, hidden thing and that women are damaged by using it, even if it’s totally voluntary and for their own happiness. Being a street hooker is undoubtedly an unpleasant job, but we treat all sex work, including the safest, cushiest job in the world of camgirl as being soul-destroying. It’s ridiculous. Culture and society influence the way people feel. Maybe in a perfectly sex-positive and misogyny free society, you’d be right. But today and here it’s very different, and with all the slut-shaming and misogyny in society, I’m not going to judge sex workers or even actresses for sometimes changing their minds about what they are comfortable with regarding their own body. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/258 "2016-05-11T23:37:37Z")
Wow, this thread really reinforces stereotypes about fans of fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/259 "2016-05-11T23:59:02Z")
Does it? I hate fantasy, and I don’t care about seing her tits, since there are tits all over the internet, and her tits are on my hard drive anyway. But going from a show that never hides anything to using soap-opera angles and sheet placement is awkward and distracting. I don’t care about seeing her naked. Do a digital body double swap, I don’t care. But don’t make it awkward and stand out. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345/260 "2016-05-12T00:37:39Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > …her tits are on my hard drive anyway. And > [@SenorBeef](#): > > …I don’t care about seeing her naked. Seem to contradict each other… I mean…I highly doubt the vast majority of viewers were taken out of the scene or felt she didn’t seem ‘vulnerable’ enough because there were no nudity. It didn’t hurt a thing as far as the show goes. If a producer needs tits to portray a character’s vulnerability, then they’re not a very good producer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-03-oathbreaker-5-8-2016-show-discussion/754345.md?page=14)