# Game of Thrones 6.04 "Book of the Stranger" 5/15/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869 "2016-05-15T20:20:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![GunnarFranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/da6949/32.png) [@GunnarFranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GunnarFranz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/221 "2016-05-19T11:25:11Z")
> [@by-tor](#): > > I will say that it seems like Daenerys’ plot armor is so thick now that she has entered god mode and can’t die. I hope I am wrong and someone swings by and chops off her conceited head. If only… As a non-reader, is she such a clichéd and boring character in the books as well? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/222 "2016-05-19T13:09:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > OK. I must conceed defeat on this one. The guards might execute lord Whatisname. > > But then Littlefinger couldn’t avoid paying the consequences of such a foolish act. And Littlefinger is supposed to have more sense than Joffrey. This lord has now every good reason to seek his demise (foreigner, lowborn, possible murderer of the previous lord, betrayer of Sansa, and now threatening to have him killed, what’s not to love?). Nitpick: Baelish is not a foreigner to the Vale ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/223 "2016-05-19T13:10:27Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > If only… As a non-reader, is she such a clichéd and boring character in the books as well? See the OP. ---
**Author:** ![GunnarFranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/da6949/32.png) [@GunnarFranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GunnarFranz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/224 "2016-05-19T16:41:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > See the OP. Thanks, I guess I should rephrase: Does anyone else find Dany to be, quite possibly, the most boring/clichéd protagonist in the last several decades of television? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/225 "2016-05-19T16:47:15Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > Thanks, I guess I should rephrase: > > Does anyone else find Dany to be, quite possibly, the most boring/clichéd protagonist in the last several decades of television? Yeah, we’ve seen so many idealistic anti-slavery crusaders who also crucify their enemies and burn them alive. Totally a cliché by now. ---
**Author:** ![GunnarFranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/da6949/32.png) [@GunnarFranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GunnarFranz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/226 "2016-05-19T18:52:48Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yeah, we’ve seen so many idealistic anti-slavery crusaders who also crucify their enemies and burn them alive. Totally a cliché by now. So Spartacus with dragons? Her self righteousness is to a fault. Every antagonist so far has met their end due to arrogance, predictably the same will happen to Ramsey, one of the show’s more interesting characters. Unfortunately the (second) most arrogant on the show just happens to be a fan favorite because boobs? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/227 "2016-05-19T19:09:40Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > So Spartacus with dragons? Yeah, Dany is pretty much exactly like Spartacus. No differences that I can see. :dubious: > [@](#): > > Her self righteousness is to a fault. All the major characters have faults. The same fault was the downfall of Ned and Robb Stark. That’s one of the main points of the show - most of the characters are multidimensional with a mixture of good and bad traits. > [@](#): > > Every antagonist so far has met their end due to arrogance, predictably the same will happen to Ramsey, one of the show’s more interesting characters. Actually, I think Ramsay is one of the least interesting characters on the show. He really is one-dimensional. The only thing that drives him is his own twisted desires. His actions are highly predictable (although we may not know exactly when he’s going to do it, it’s always going to be nasty.). Arrogance is the least of his faults. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately the (second) most arrogant on the show just happens to be a fan favorite because boobs? Given that we haven’t seen them for two seasons, I don’t think that’s the only reason. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/228 "2016-05-19T19:47:45Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > Does anyone else find Dany to be, quite possibly, the most boring/clichéd protagonist in the last several decades of television? I can only assume this is hyperbole. Dany isn’t even the most boring or clichéd character on Game of Thrones. Perhaps bringing it down a notch, yes, lots of people have grumbled about the slowness of her plotline. For me, however, it’s more complex than just saying it’s slow, because it isn’t strictly slow. In particular, her arc in the early seasons offered a lot of development at a reasonable pace. Then she started… governing, and relative to the early seasons and (importantly) relative to what viewers are expecting from her in due course, all the desert-wandering and governing seems a bit below her pay grade as Breaker of Chains yada yada. Her story is looping back around, though, and I expect the Essos train to pick up steam fairly quickly. For my money, I gave out much bigger sighs of resignation whenever Arya’s scenes came up over the past few seasons than I did with Dany’s scenes. But as with Dany, Arya is hopefully poised for re-connection to the rest of the world now, so I’m excited to see her next few acts. And enough has been said about Dorne (…you know, if you’re looking for any boring or clichéd TV characters to grumble about.) ---
**Author:** ![GunnarFranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/da6949/32.png) [@GunnarFranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GunnarFranz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/229 "2016-05-19T19:50:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yeah, Dany is pretty much exactly like Spartacus. No differences that I can see. :dubious: > > All the major characters have faults. The same fault was the downfall of Ned and Robb Stark. That’s one of the main points of the show - most of the characters are multidimensional with a mixture of good and bad traits. > > Actually, I think Ramsay is one of the least interesting characters on the show. He really is one-dimensional. The only thing that drives him is his own twisted desires. His actions are highly predictable (although we may not know exactly when he’s going to do it, it’s always going to be nasty.). Arrogance is the least of his faults. > > Given that we haven’t seen them for two seasons, I don’t think that’s the only reason. I’m thankful for the thoughtful response, though I must say I don’t really see her as very multidimensional. Post season 1 (her rebirth) I’ve only seen doubt materialize in her after Tyrion’s arrival. Id rank Ramsey as Fourth most interesting (in a large ensemble cast) behind Varys, Tyrion, and Little Finger. As to the demise of Ned, arrogance in honor is what brought him down that is true, and perhaps Robb was needlessly confident in his allegiances… So maybe I’m missing the point in the comparison, when is Dany’s downfall? Edit: @Pasta I was thinking we were all in agreement on pretending the Dorne storyline didn’t/doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/230 "2016-05-19T19:52:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Actually, I think Ramsay is one of the least interesting characters on the show. He really is one-dimensional. I agree completely. Ramsey is predictably cruel. His scenes this season have been a waste of screen time. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/231 "2016-05-19T19:59:10Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > Id rank Ramsey as Fourth most interesting (in a large ensemble cast) behind Varys, Tyrion, and Little Finger. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I agree completely. Ramsey is predictably cruel. His scenes this season have been a waste of screen time. It’s still Ramsay\*, not “Ramsey”, and I do think he’s more interesting to watch than others (like Bran, gag). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/232 "2016-05-19T20:06:33Z")
I like watching all of the characters, to one degree or another, but I’ll admit Sam and Gilly are among my least favorite. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/233 "2016-05-19T20:08:55Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > Edit: @Pasta I was thinking we were all in agreement on pretending the Dorne storyline didn’t/doesn’t exist. Ah, didn’t that memo, but happy to sign on. 🙂 Actually, I do expect Dorne to come back in some way that matters, but man was it a slog to get through so far. Regarding Ramsay, I don’t mind his scenes so much since (1) they more often than not move the plot along, (2) they more often than not are connected to other characters or story arcs, and (3) the actor does the role well. The character himself is certainly straightforward and predictable, though, but at least he’s in the mix of it all. Contrast: Arya over the past few seasons, and certainly Bran before he started given us those sweet, sweet flashbacks. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/234 "2016-05-19T20:10:54Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I like watching all of the characters, to one degree or another, but I’ll admit Sam and Gilly are among my least favorite. I’m hoping they fast-forward to the Citadel. Sam+Gilly = boring. Sam = potentially quite exciting. I look forward to learning what Sam learns. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/235 "2016-05-19T22:16:08Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > As to the demise of Ned, arrogance in honor is what brought him down that is true, and perhaps Robb was needlessly confident in his allegiances… I probably shouldn’t have called it arrogance, but self-righteousness. The Starks are too honorable for their own good. Ned gets his head chopped off because he had mercy and warned Cersei before telling Robert about her infidelity. (But if he had been completely honorable, he wouldn’t have lied in confessing to treason.) Robb loses half his army, forcing him into an alliance with the Freys, because he insists on treating Lord Karstark as he would any other murderer despite the consequences. (Although if Robb was completely honorable, he wouldn’t have broken his oath and married Talisa.) > [@](#): > > So maybe I’m missing the point in the comparison, when is Dany’s downfall? Dany doesn’t need to have a downfall, she just has to suffer consequences and show growth. > [@](#): > > I’m thankful for the thoughtful response, though I must say I don’t really see her as very multidimensional. Post season 1 (her rebirth) I’ve only seen doubt materialize in her after Tyrion’s arrival. Granted Dany is very arrogant and self-assured about her right to rule the Seven Kingdoms, but she has been very conflicted and unsure of herself as a ruler in fact. Remember, she’s just out of her teens and still very young. Her advisers (Jorah, Barriston, and Daario) alternately advise her to rule with an iron hand or show mercy. She often listens to them, unlike Joffrey who did whatever he pleased and rejected all advice. And she’s been all over the map. She crucifies many of the Masters, then executes one of the slave leaders when he kills a Son of the Harpy without a trial, at the risk of alienating the population. (This echoes Robb’s decision with Karstark.) Despite her insistence that the Son of the Harpy should have had a trial before being killed, she has her dragons incinerate a Master chosen at random. Then she decides to marry one of the Masters and permit the Pit Games to resume to improve her relationship with them. She doesn’t know what the fuck she’s doing, but is trying to figure it out. And this conflict and vacillation is part of what makes her interesting. > [@](#): > > Id rank Ramsey as Fourth most interesting (in a large ensemble cast) behind Varys, Tyrion, and Little Finger. I think the most interesting character, after Tyrion, is Jaime, who has done both heroic and villainous things. For me, Ramsay is in competition for dead last with Joffrey. At least Joffrey could be amusing in his inflated view of himself. Ramsay is just a pure villain, with no redeeming features. He might as well have a thin moustache he twirls while going “mwhahaha”! The only unusual thing about him is the depth of his depravity. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I like watching all of the characters, to one degree or another, but I’ll admit Sam and Gilly are among my least favorite. I rather like them as representing the nerds and dweebs of the world. Everybody else is noble and heroic (or villainous), obsessed with taking the crown, or vengeance, or religion, or some other shit. Both of them are basically cowards (though capable of courage when in desperation) who are mainly concerned with staying alive in the midst of all the total lunatics hacking each other to pieces around them. Gilly in particular is the only character who represents the viewpoint of common, ordinary people, and as such I think she provides valuable contrast to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/236 "2016-05-20T00:14:46Z")
I wrote a whole long thing but I accidentally closed the browser… anyway… I like Sam and Gilly their scenes are refreshing since they have the most heart and some of the few regularly humorous bits on the show. Dany can seem boring because her character growth is in fits and starts. We should see her growing as a Queen/Conqueror but we only get it in spurts because the show has so much going on. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/237 "2016-05-20T03:36:24Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > It’s still Ramsay\*, not “Ramsey”, and I do think he’s more interesting to watch than others (like Bran, gag). The best was that SNL sketch from a couple weeks ago poking fun at how long and drawn out the “Jon is dead on a table” deal was. About how slowly and screentime-wastey the looooong resurrection scene was. And then Jon wakes up and says: “What’s going on with Bran? I want to see Bran!” And everyone groans. hehhehheh. The sketch was way longer than it was funny, but that ending was great. (It’s so rare to see an SNL sketch end on a funny note.) ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/238 "2016-05-20T04:05:08Z")
I am as unimpressed with the whole Sam/Gilly stuff as anyone but I did notice shes picked up quite a bit of vocabulary either hanging out with Sam or shes learned to read between seasons (or both) Dany and the Mongols should be interesting, especially when she gets back and hears what Tyrion pulled. I wonder what she plans to do with the slave cities when she heads to Westeros. Maybe the Unsullied will stay behind as a police force. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/239 "2016-05-20T04:42:23Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > I am as unimpressed with the whole Sam/Gilly stuff as anyone but I did notice shes picked up quite a bit of vocabulary either hanging out with Sam or shes learned to read between seasons (or both). Shireen was the one who taught her to read. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/240 "2016-05-20T05:15:46Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > I wonder what she plans to do with the slave cities when she heads to Westeros. Maybe the Unsullied will stay behind as a police force. I think she should sell all the Masters to Volantis as slaves. Win for everyone but the Masters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869.md?page=13)