# Game of Thrones 6.04 "Book of the Stranger" 5/15/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869 "2016-05-15T20:20:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![PlumBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@PlumBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlumBob)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/141 "2016-05-17T15:36:18Z")
“GRRM laughs all the way to the bank” Spoiler alert! ; ) ---
**Author:** ![GunnarFranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/da6949/32.png) [@GunnarFranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GunnarFranz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/142 "2016-05-17T17:04:29Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > And then, in the climax of the series, Ramsay wins the Iron Throne, marries Cersei, Littlefinger is the Hand of the King, and everyone else we cared about is dead. Fans are shocked and pissed off as GRRM laughs all the way to the bank. 😃 As a fan of interesting television, here’s to hoping this plays out instead of the want-to-off-my-self boring end of Dany and Jon riding a bran warged dragon to victory in battle over the Night’s King and ruling happily ever after… ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/143 "2016-05-17T17:53:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > …As for wishing for Ramsey’s comeuppance, at this point what I’d like to be shown is that you might be able to kill him, but you can’t teach him a lesson. That he is so sick that you literally can’t make him suffer, no matter what you do to him. I completely agree and think Ramsey would actually enjoy getting eaten by his own dogs or flayed by Theon. We know he’s a sadist, but has also certainly shown a masochistic side (if not an actual death wish). > [@](#): > > …My reasoning for that is to show that the idea if revenge itself is hollow. Good point, and consistent with what Arya is being taught. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/144 "2016-05-17T18:04:35Z")
I was wondering where Ramsay Snow gets his sadism, but then I remembered the story his father Roose told him about the night he was conceived (when Roose raped Ramsay’s mother beneath the swinging body of her husband). And then there’s Joffrey and a few other insane and/or cruel characters. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/145 "2016-05-17T18:12:20Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was wondering where Ramsay Snow gets his sadism, but then I remembered the story his father Roose told him about the night he was conceived (when Roose raped Ramsay’s mother beneath the swinging body of her husband). And then there’s Joffrey and a few other insane and/or cruel characters. Everyone kind of forgets that the Boltons in general are sadists (flayed man and all that), because Roose was so pragmatic. Ramsay just doesn’t have a filter like the rest of them. ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/146 "2016-05-17T18:15:02Z")
Good episode. Sansa seemed to be getting back into her “Playing the Game” mode, we saw Littlefinger for the first time in a while. I can’t shake the feeling that Jon’s letter wasn’t really written by Ramsay. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/147 "2016-05-17T18:44:34Z")
Question Gentle Ladies and Lords: Where in the hierarchy of the North or in Westeros overall would Jon rank, if, as we suspect, he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and everyone was made aware of this? Could he be Lord of the North? Would he rank lower or higher than Daenarys in her house? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/148 "2016-05-17T18:49:40Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Question Gentle Ladies and Lords: > > Where in the hierarchy of the North or in Westeros overall would Jon rank, if, as we suspect, he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and everyone was made aware of this? > > Could he be Lord of the North? Would he rank lower or higher than Daenarys in her house? If they were not married he’d be behind everybody. If they were married he’d be ahead of Daenerys in the Targaryen line since he’s male and a descendent from the male line. In the Stark line he’d be behind Bran and Rickon since they’re sons of the Lord while Jon is the son of a daughter. Eddard’s sons would all have to be dead before he was heir to Winterfell. I’m fairly sure about this, but there are some people here that are more versed in succession. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/149 "2016-05-17T18:57:02Z")
Forgot that marriage plays a big role. I don’t suppose that was possible, right? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/150 "2016-05-17T19:08:51Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Forgot that marriage plays a big role. > > I don’t suppose that was possible, right? Why not? We’ve been told that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, but think there have been hints that she might have gone with him willingly. They could have found a septon to perform the ceremony. (However, Lyanna as a Stark might have followed the Old Gods.) ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/151 "2016-05-17T19:17:46Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Question Gentle Ladies and Lords: > > Where in the hierarchy of the North or in Westeros overall would Jon rank, if, as we suspect, he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and everyone was made aware of this? > > Could he be Lord of the North? Would he rank lower or higher than Daenarys in her house? There was a lot of discussion about the succession in the “other” thread (linked to in the OP) last week. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > If they were not married he’d be behind everybody. Unless he were somehow legitimized. For a historical example, Queen Elizabeth I was declared illegitimate after her parents’ marriage was annulled and her mother was executed, but was later legitimized by Parliament (and ultimately acceded to the throne, of course). > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > If they were married he’d be ahead of Daenerys in the Targaryen line since he’s male and a descendent from the male line. Agreed. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > In the Stark line he’d be behind Bran and Rickon since they’re sons of the Lord while Jon is the son of a daughter. Eddard’s sons would all have to be dead before he was heir to Winterfell. Agreed with the added point that _if_ daughters are eligible to inherit, then Sansa and Arya would be ahead of Jon in the line of succession for Winterfell. > [@Kinthalis](#): > > Forgot that marriage plays a big role. > > I don’t suppose that was possible, right? It would be possible, if multiple wives were permitted, or if Rhaegar’s first wife was already deceased (not sure of the timing of her death), or if Rhaegar’s first marriage had somehow been annulled or a divorce granted. After all, it doesn’t take long to summon a septon. Alternatively, the child could simply be declared legitimate by the proper authority, regardless of whether or not his parents were lawfully married. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/152 "2016-05-17T19:24:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think this can be fanwanked by saying the Targaryens are special in that it’s always a Targaryen that is selected to become the mother/father of dragons, and only that Targaryen becomes fireproof. The evidence for that is the ‘special magic’ that allowed Daenerys to become fireproof the moment she touched the dragon eggs. All we have to say is that it’s not a one-time thing, but a characteristic you possess after the dragons, or the God, or magic force or whatever it is chooses you to be the leader. Or maybe you only get the magic if you are “worthy” (Thor’s Hammer style). Dany’s brother clearly wasn’t. > [@Cornelius Tuggerson](#): > > Sansa seemed to be getting back into her “Playing the Game” mode, we saw Littlefinger for the first time in a while. I can’t shake the feeling that Jon’s letter wasn’t really written by Ramsay. That doesn’t make sense from a practical or story perspective. Ramsay knows Sansa probably went to Castle Black where her brother lives and Jon knows Ramsay has taken Winterfell. There’s no reason to “trick” Jon into a confrontation with the Boltons. And neither Sansa nor Littlefinger could know that Ramsay has Rikon since it just happened. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/153 "2016-05-17T19:35:38Z")
> [@robby](#): > > It would be possible, if multiple wives were permitted, or if Rhaegar’s first wife was already deceased (not sure of the timing of her death), or if Rhaegar’s first marriage had somehow been annulled or a divorce granted. After all, it doesn’t take long to summon a septon. Rhaegar was killed at the Battle of the Trident, and his wife Elia was killed afterward during the Sack of King’s Landing. (I had forgotten the sequence of events.) It appears multiple marriages aren’t permitted, so it it’s likely that any children with Lyanna would be illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/154 "2016-05-17T19:53:59Z")
> [@GunnarFranz](#): > > As a fan of interesting television, here’s to hoping this plays out instead of the want-to-off-my-self boring end of Dany and Jon riding a bran warged dragon to victory in battle over the Night’s King and ruling happily ever after… I would indeed be mightily disapointed if it ended like that. > [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I completely agree and think Ramsey would actually enjoy getting eaten by his own dogs or flayed by Theon. This idea has already crossed my mind. That when time wil come for Ramsay to die,if it’s in a “creative” he wil be shown sort of appreciative of what’s happening to him. I expect him not to survive this season. The Starks taking back Winterfell seems to be the main plotline for the season, and I’m not sure what he could do or whatpurpose he could still serve in the story if he loses the North. Makes me think that if he does die, we’re going to lack “evil”/serious antagonists (apart from the white walkers) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/155 "2016-05-17T20:07:38Z")
> [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](#): > > That doesn’t make sense from a practical or story perspective. Ramsay knows Sansa probably went to Castle Black where her brother lives and Jon knows Ramsay has taken Winterfell. There’s no reason to “trick” Jon into a confrontation with the Boltons. And neither Sansa nor Littlefinger could know that Ramsay has Rikon since it just happened. Unless Littlefinger also pulled this trick (having Rickon delivered to Ramsay by the Umbers, before they betray him). Note that I do tend to think that the Umbers indeed intend to betray Ramsay (in particular because of the “no oath” scene), but also think that it would be an utterly nonsentical plan in real life, since there’s a low chance that Rickon would survive (unless the Umbers are perfectly willing to take the risk of sacrificing Rickon, which might of course be possible, assuming they expect Bran or Sansa to be still alive). ETA : when I think of it, wouldn’t the Karstarks become heirs to Winterfell in the event that the Stark line would die out? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/156 "2016-05-17T20:20:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > ETA : when I think of it, wouldn’t the Karstarks become heirs to Winterfell in the event that the Stark line would die out? I don’t _think_ so, unless Westeros feudal inheritance operates rather differently than I would assume it does. They’re presumably a cadet branch, sure - but how recent of one? If the name goes back several hundred years and they don’t have any recent marriages with the ruling bloodline, I would assume some recent second cousin or whatever would have a better claim. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/157 "2016-05-17T20:23:34Z")
I have a big problem with the Tyrell accepting Cersei’s plan : It obviously might work. A sudden attack of disciplined soldiers during a walk of shame 2.0 is likely to disperse the crowd and the handful of sparrows guarding her. But…although Margaery is a main character in the show, isn’t his brother at least equally important (if not more, being the heir) for the Tyrell family? How could freeing Margaery while leaving Loras in the hands of now pissed and distrustful sparrows seem like a good plan to them? By the way, my prediction : Margaery is freed. The high sparrow is killed. He’s replaced by even more extremist Lancel. The people of King’s Landing, led by the sparrows enter in full scale revolt. The Lannister/Tyrell get their ass handed to them and barely escape, if even that. Tommen is killed. The palace is burnt down, and winter comes, leading to the scene of snow falling in a throne room in ruins shown in season 2. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/158 "2016-05-17T20:28:29Z")
> [@robby](#): > > There was a lot of discussion about the succession in the “other” thread (linked to in the OP) last week. > > Unless he were somehow legitimized. > > For a historical example, Queen Elizabeth I was declared illegitimate after her parents’ marriage was annulled and her mother was executed, but was later legitimized by Parliament (and ultimately acceded to the throne, of course). That seems unlikely since in Westeros that can only be done by royal decree. All Targaryen royalty died before his birth, and the Baratheon line has no reason to do so. > [@Colibri](#): > > Rhaegar was killed at the Battle of the Trident, and his wife Elia was killed afterward during the Sack of King’s Landing. (I had forgotten the sequence of events.) It appears multiple marriages aren’t permitted, so it it’s likely that any children with Lyanna would be illegitimate. Targaryen kings in the past have taken multiple wives. The first, Aegon, wed both his sisters. Rhaegar could also have had his marriage annulled. Of course even if Jon wasn’t a bastard, nobody alive except, perhaps, Howland Reed would know it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/159 "2016-05-17T20:30:18Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I don’t _think_ so, unless Westeros feudal inheritance operates rather differently than I would assume it does. They’re presumably a cadet branch, sure - but how recent of one? If the name goes back several hundred years and they don’t have any recent marriages with the ruling bloodline, I would assume some recent second cousin or whatever would have a better claim. In theory yes, but I tend to think that in practice, they would use known characters rather than a so far unheard of cousin. That’s the same with the Baratheons, for instance. Presumably, they should have any number of remote cousins who could claim Storm’s end and the Iron throne. But as far as the show is concerned, those people just don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/160 "2016-05-17T20:43:56Z")
Another complaint : I think that Littlefinger last shenanigan (threatening the old Vale guy) completely lacks subtlety and is completely out of Littlefinger’s known character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869.md?page=9)