# Game of Thrones 6.04 "Book of the Stranger" 5/15/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869 "2016-05-15T20:20:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/161 "2016-05-17T20:47:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Another complaint : I think that Littlefinger last shenanigan (threatening the old Vale guy) completely lacks subtlety and is completely out of Littlefinger’s known character. His lie was terrible too. The fingers are to the east of the Eyrie. To get a group of Boltons there to kidnap them would be impossible. Plus the Boltons would have just killed him if they were going to kidnap Sansa anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/162 "2016-05-17T21:22:12Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I have a big problem with the Tyrell accepting Cersei’s plan : > > It obviously might work. A sudden attack of disciplined soldiers during a walk of shame 2.0 is likely to disperse the crowd and the handful of sparrows guarding her. > But…although Margaery is a main character in the show, isn’t his brother at least equally important (if not more, being the heir) for the Tyrell family? How could freeing Margaery while leaving Loras in the hands of now pissed and distrustful sparrows seem like a good plan to them? > > By the way, my prediction : Margaery is freed. The high sparrow is killed. He’s replaced by even more extremist Lancel. The people of King’s Landing, led by the sparrows enter in full scale revolt. The Lannister/Tyrell get their ass handed to them and barely escape, if even that. Tommen is killed. The palace is burnt down, and winter comes, leading to the scene of snow falling in a throne room in ruins shown in season 2. I had assumed the attack would be before the walk of shame, not during it. That they’d attack the temple/prison and rescue Loras and Margaery. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/163 "2016-05-17T21:28:25Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > His lie was terrible too. The fingers are to the east of the Eyrie. To get a group of Boltons there to kidnap them would be impossible. Plus the Boltons would have just killed him if they were going to kidnap Sansa anyway. I think it was clear to him that the Vale guy knew he was up to no good. His move this time was basically saying “I control Jon Arryn.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/164 "2016-05-17T21:42:27Z")
> [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](#): > > Sansa seemed to be getting back into her “Playing the Game” mode, we saw Littlefinger for the first time in a while. I can’t shake the feeling that Jon’s letter wasn’t really written by Ramsay. The camera _did_ focus on the “Flayed Man” sigil on the wax seal. Would Littlefinger stoop so low as to forge someone else’s seal? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/165 "2016-05-17T21:42:56Z")
I think the most likely explanation for the “secret” is the Sparrow lying to Tommen, either to test him (tell him a lie in confidence, then see if it gets a reaction, then you know Tommen revealed a secret, and that gives you leverage of some sort) or deliberately to provoke a result (for reasons not yet seen). I will be somewhat surprised if Margaery ever agreed to a walk of shame at all, it’s out of character for her and contradicts what we’ve seen her doing recently. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/166 "2016-05-17T21:43:19Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think it was clear to him that the Vale guy knew he was up to no good. His move this time was basically saying “I control Jon Arryn.” This was my interpretation of the scene as well. Littlefinger was saying to Royce, “I can say anything I want, and Robin will trust me. Wanna play?” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/167 "2016-05-17T21:53:53Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think it was clear to him that the Vale guy knew he was up to no good. His move this time was basically saying “I control Jon Arryn.” While I wouldn’t put it past Littlefinger to arrange some kind of Weekend At Bernie’s type scenario with the late Jon Arryn, it’s his son Robyn he’s pulling the strings of. Although I agree it was a bit obvious and not very Littlefinger-y. > [@Dewey Finn](#): > > The camera did focus on the “Flayed Man” sigil on the wax seal. Would Littlefinger stoop so low as to forge someone else’s seal? Again I wouldn’t put it past him as part of his ‘chaos is a ladder’ schtick, as he mentioned to Cersei last season all he has to do is wait for Stannis and Roose to battle it out and mop up the survivor. Seeing another way to weaken the Boltons and generally sow mayhem before he sends in the forces of the Vale would be in character, though the big question is would he know Ramsay had Rickon? Maybe through working with the Umbers, though I don’t know what they’d get out of it, some sort of promised reward when Baelish is Warden of the North maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/168 "2016-05-17T21:54:43Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The camera _did_ focus on the “Flayed Man” sigil on the was seal. Would Littlefinger stoop so low as to forge someone else’s seal? Yeah, I don’t see why this letter needs to be anything other than what it appears to be. It seems quite reasonable that Ramsay would send a rider with such a note. Regarding Tommen’s secret: It seemed to me that Tommen had learned of Margaery’s imminent Walk. They cut away just before he says what he says to Cersei, and then in the next scene Cersei uses a “Guess what I just learned?” tone when mentioning the Walk. I thought the dots were laid out clearly to connect those two scenes without any need to speculate on some further secret (…and certainly not information on Joffrey’s murder. Innocent Tommen would have been much less calm and collected if he had received that meteor strike to his worldview.) ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/169 "2016-05-17T21:57:17Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Another complaint : I think that Littlefinger last shenanigan (threatening the old Vale guy) completely lacks subtlety and is completely out of Littlefinger’s known character. Yes, Little Finger the guy who when he betrayed Ned Stark actually held the knife to Ned’s throat and nearly “mwahahaha”-ed. “I told you not to trust me.” Subtle. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/170 "2016-05-17T22:15:24Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Dude what. He’s a producer, consultant and wrote the scripts for episodes in season 1, 2, 3 & 4 as well as being the, y’know, creator of the freakin’ franchise. If you’re not familiar with the [trope “Word of God”](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod) (enjoy the TVTropes link, bwahaha) it’s defined as the creator personally setting the record straight. I’m quite familiar with the trope, and it does not apply here because he’s not a creator of the show. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > In this case on the Targaryen thing which is directly relevant to TV show, if we can infer that only Dany is part-asbestos as a consequence of ‘dragony magic’ and not all Targaryens it means that the scene where Jon burns his hand is not disproof of one of the most debated things among show fans since season 1. We don’t know about all Targaryens (of course there was the thing with Viserys, but molten metal seems like kind of a gray area), but the show certainly seems to be presenting Dany as fireproof. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/171 "2016-05-17T22:24:29Z")
I was thinking the department for grassland security needs to review its procedures… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/172 "2016-05-17T22:30:11Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’m quite familiar with the trope, and it does not apply here because he’s not a creator of the show. In what way is a producer and scriptwriter not a ‘creator’? ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/173 "2016-05-17T22:43:39Z")
Another possibility, Margaery does her walk but because she has shown kindness for the poor in the past she gets a completely different reaction from the crowd. Instead of revulsion and abuse like Cersei got, she gets adulation from the masses, thereby increasing her power and influence. Just a thought I had, how likely? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/174 "2016-05-17T22:44:48Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > In what way is a producer and scriptwriter not a ‘creator’? As has been pointed out multiple times, he wrote an episode a year for the first few seasons. He has not worked on the show in years. Executive producer credits are often given out like candy as an honorary credit even if the person isn’t very involved with actual production but had some important hand in it somehow (or provided funding). He’ll always get something like a “Story by” credit (I’m not sure exactly how they attribute it on the show), mainly so he can always collect a check for each episode they make. But that’s about all he does with it these days. His word is **not** canon for the show. Normally authors of books that get adapted for film or TV have very little, if any influence whatsoever on the adaptation. They get paid, and others take it from there. GRRM has actually had **more than average** influence for a book author, but it still doesn’t amount to much in the long run. He himself has lamented his lack of control, in [this quote from his blog](http://grrm.livejournal.com/429752.html): > [@GRRM](#): > > Yes, I know that THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER named me “the third most powerful writer in Hollywood” last December. You would be surprised at how little that means. I cannot control what anyone else says or does, or make them stop saying or doing it, be it on the fannish or professional fronts. What I can control is what happens in my books, so I am going to return to that chapter I’ve been writing on THE WINDS OF WINTER now, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/175 "2016-05-17T22:51:36Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > Another possibility, Margaery does her walk but because she has shown kindness for the poor in the past she gets a completely different reaction from the crowd. What kindness has Margery shown the poor? It seems to me there’s hardly any interaction between the nobility and the poor at all, and Margery has only been in King’s Landing for a few months, maybe a year. I’d think the masses know virtually nothing of her beyond her name and that she’s been married to Joffrey and then Tommen. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/176 "2016-05-17T22:52:40Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > Another possibility, Margaery does her walk but because she has shown kindness for the poor in the past she gets a completely different reaction from the crowd. Instead of revulsion and abuse like Cersei got, she gets adulation from the masses, thereby increasing her power and influence. Just a thought I had, how likely? Thought about that too, and while she’s obviously more popular than Cersei we’ve not seen any evidence that anyone is all that broken up over her being banged up in squalor. In a popularity contest the High Sparrow would win, I think. ETA; on the whole GRRM/creator thing we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/177 "2016-05-17T22:58:53Z")
I was thinking there was a scene where she was traveling with Joffrey through a squalid part of Kings Landing and she stopped the procession so she could get out and interact with the poors. I thought at the time that they were setting her up to be a champion of the masses. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/178 "2016-05-17T23:23:51Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > I was thinking there was a scene where she was traveling with Joffrey through a squalid part of Kings Landing and she stopped the procession so she could get out and interact with the poors. I thought at the time that they were setting her up to be a champion of the masses. Yep, she [visited an orphanage](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u72a2guLNZc) in season 3. _“But what have you done for us lately?”_ ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/179 "2016-05-17T23:30:46Z")
And presumably she’s done of a lot of work for the poor off screen (or rather had underlings work for the poor in her name & made the occasional appearance). > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Everyone kind of forgets that the Boltons in general are sadists (flayed man and all that), because Roose was so pragmatic. Ramsay just doesn’t have a filter like the rest of them. Their sigil is a flayed man; that in itself says all you need to know about them. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The camera _did_ focus on the “Flayed Man” sigil on the wax seal. Would Littlefinger stoop so low as to forge someone else’s seal? Yes, of course Littlefinger would stoop that low, but I see no reason to doubt Ramsey sent the letter. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869/180 "2016-05-17T23:37:11Z")
I believe at one point Ramsey told someone that his family had been flaying their enemies for a thousand years. I assume anyone that wasn’t onboard with that would have left long ago! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-04-book-of-the-stranger-5-15-16-show-discussion/754869.md?page=10)