# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/221 "2016-06-21T01:27:31Z")
I think as usual people are over thinking a cliched last second cavalry charge. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/222 "2016-06-21T01:32:11Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They had to go by Moat Cailin, which is the bottleneck on the way to the North. Surely the Boltons as Wardens of the North would have had a garrison or at least some sentinels there. > > The real reason that they took Ramsay by surprise was same as that for every other implausibility in the show: that it was more dramatic that way. No other explanation is needed. Yeah… honestly this was shit. Enjoyable shit, but shit. It’s the same league as Walking Dead now… the know people are going to eat it up so they don’t need too make anything great. You know what could have been a good explanation— the Great Northern Conspiracy theory. Fan speculation for GoT has always been wild… but at this point the fan speculation and theories are coming about in order for things to make sense or to be not as pedestrian. AryaWolverine for example…the whole Bravo’s storyline was nonsensical this season. Now the Battle of Bastards…it went down exactly as it was telegraphed. Exactly. I honestly was bored by the time the Vale showed. And even then we had already seen the last minute save by a calvary twice in the series already. There was so much they could have done with the tools they had in the toybox. The giant should not had any problem with the Bolton phalanx. He seriously could have tossed dead horses into their line to break their ranks…also why does that dude not go into battle with a giant sized shield? Are there no more wargs in the Wildling army? They were rare but it was implied in previous seasons that a warg was sent with every raiding party. Imagine SmallJon Umber getting his eyes clawed out by a hawk controlled by a wildling. Also no Ghost? Although I do imagine Jin is pretty protective now. Rickons means of death was the only unexpected part (although we all knew he was toast). Jon trying to save him made sense because Jon is Jon but then having his army fall for the trap on his call was bad storytelling. If he had started to ride out and told Davos and Tormund to stick to the plan AND then the Wildlings disobey because REMEMBER they think Jon is a God? (The show forgot that immediately.) That would have furthered the story without making Jon’s suicidal tendencies reflect so poorly on his leadership. Sansa’s secrets for secrets sakes was just scooby doo storytelling. They could have organically made things come together but like I said earlier… they don’t need to. The show can and should be better. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/223 "2016-06-21T01:32:21Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > The Houses there are mostly of unknown allegiance in the tv series, in the books it has become pretty clear that … Please stop bringing up the books in this thread. There’s an entire rest of the Internet (including another thread in this forum) where you can discuss them. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/224 "2016-06-21T01:37:07Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I think the relevant people are not slavers, but slaves. Most of the people on those ships are slaves, and the woman riding dragons is famous for freeing slaves. Why throw spears at her and risk the drawing the dragon’s ire, when you can just surrender and become a free man? But if so, or if in fact the dragons-as-air-force are absolutely invulnerable to ship-borne weapons (and I see no reason why a ship couldn’t be mounting a heavy spear throwing weapon of some sort), I’d at least like the show to acknowledge the need to explain it. Last time Dany was menaced by slavers, and a dragon came in to save the day, we were all like “aww yeah, dragon, you bitches is toast”, and then a bunch of them bitches was toast, but the dragon took a lot of damage as well, and went limping away. This time there was way way more slavers, who had time and incentive to prepare for dragons, so when the dragons showed up I was really kind of worried for them, but then… nothing. I’m not saying it can’t be fanwanked several different ways, I’m saying I don’t want to have to fanwank it. I want it to be the case that if I had a private conversation with David Benoit and DB Weiss and I asked them “hey, why were the slavers’ boats so helpless against dragons”, (a) they have an answer, and (b) it can be derived based on what we saw on screen. In a sense, risking reopening old wounds, it’s the same as the Arya argument from last episode, although not quite as bad. It’s not that I couldn’t come up with explanations to cover up apparent holes… but I want the confidence that that’s actually what the showrunners intended. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/225 "2016-06-21T01:39:16Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They had to go by Moat Cailin, which is the bottleneck on the way to the North. What are you basing this on? The opening “map” sequences? I don’t think they can be taken as accurate or precise scale models. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/226 "2016-06-21T01:45:18Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > One of the Silent Sisters delivered Ned’s bones to Catelyn a few seasons ago. Ned’s bones were delivered to Catelyn by Littlefinger himself. > [@](#): > > I wonder if we’re going to see any reaction at the royal court to Sansa reclaiming Winterfell. IIRC we didn’t even see Cersei getting word that she married into House Bolton (a Lannister ally). Littlefinger informed Cersei that the Boltons were planning to have Ramsay marry Sansa. He offers to lead an army from the Vale to take Winterfell from them and Cersei agrees to have Tommen appoint him Warden of the North. > [@](#): > > Davos still hasn’t actually really found about what happened to Shireen. He knows she died, and that Melisandre is being cagey about the details. The charred horse is a clue, but I don’t think he found anything that points to Shireen being burnt at the stake as apposed to say this being the remains’ of Shireen’s funeral pyre. Davos has seen what Melisandre’s sacrificial pyres look like. I’m sure he’s in no doubt of what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/227 "2016-06-21T01:49:32Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > What are you basing this on? The opening “map” sequences? I don’t think they can be taken as accurate or precise scale models. All the available maps show this. Besides this, Roose Bolton sent Ramsay to take Moat Cailin from the Ironborn explicitly because otherwise this small garrison would be able to block his army from moving into the North. Moat Cailin is at the narrowest part of the neck and as has been shown is surrounded by marshes. No army can get past it undetected. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/228 "2016-06-21T01:55:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They had to go by Moat Cailin, which is the bottleneck on the way to the North. Surely the Boltons as Wardens of the North would have had a garrison or at least some sentinels there. Balish camped the Knights of the Vale there, right? He killed them if they were there at all. Not to mention, the Reeds run the show down there. I’d think they’d do their best to help a crew of Stark-Friendlies through. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/229 "2016-06-21T02:02:34Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > What are you basing this on? The opening “map” sequences? I don’t think they can be taken as accurate or precise scale models. > [@Colibri](#): > > All the available maps show this. In case **BlackKnight** is trying to be extra pedantic about it, since of course the original maps come from that-which-shall-not-be-named, [HBO does also produce maps](http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-4/episode-10/map/location/32/moat-cailin#) which are identical to the “other” canonical maps. So that is perfectly fair game for “show-only” discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/230 "2016-06-21T04:09:46Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Balish camped the Knights of the Vale there, right? Not that we’ve seen. As far as I can recall, we haven’t seen a whisker of the Knights of the Vale between Littlefinger telling Lord Royce to rally the troops and this episode. Littlefinger himself met Sansa in Mole’s Town after her escape, but it’s not clear where the Knights actually were at that point. (If the Knights came with him to near the Wall, a much greater distance, that makes it even more implausible that they could avoid detection.) > [@](#): > > He killed hem if they were there at all. How did he do that, exactly? Moat Cailin is supposed to be capable of being held by a small number of men. If they were under attack, they would certainly send a rider north to spread the alarm. > [@](#): > > Not to mention, the Reeds run the show down there. I’d think they’d do their best to help a crew of Stark-Friendlies through. I don’t think that’s been established on the TV show. In any case, that still requires thousands of mounted men with their food and supplies to “sneak” through hundreds of miles of countryside without any Bolton men hearing a peep about it. ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/231 "2016-06-21T04:25:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As for Jon Snow… Why is anyone surprised that he screwed it up? Just when has he shown any real skill at leading an army? Personal combat? Sure. He’s a great fighter. But he was losing at the wall and beyond. He would have lost to the wildlings had Stannis not saved the day, and he lost at Hardhome. Then he couldn’t even keep the loyalty of the watch and got murdered for his trouble. My read on Jon Snow is that he’s a great fighter, a good man, but kind of lousy at leading men in battle. And he proved it against Bolton. The kid does have some pretty solid sword moves and he makes use of that twist-parry manuever quite consistently in a number of episodes with good results. I will certainly be the first to say he’s a hot-head, a poor tactician and a amateurish when it comes to running a real army. That said, I believe he’s underrated as a big picture strategist. He’s pretty much the only one who seriously recognizes the threat north of the wall; the need to bring wildlings across the wall lest they become wights and the need to unify the north (and possibly Westeros) under a banner to confront the coming white walkers. Others are slowly drifting toward this (Melisandre, Davos, the Brotherhood etc.) but Snow was the only individual with any sort of power or influence (albiet small as Lord Commander) that actively pursued this as a strategy for the past several seasons. Everyone else continues to squabble. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/232 "2016-06-21T04:56:54Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I haven’t seen that one yet but I will watch it. And that is lame then. Very lame. Sansa has been going on a nice arc of growth and redemption but this storyline where she withholds information is just breaking all of that down. A convo between her and Brienne could have seeded this easily - her saying that she is hiding it because she needs it to be a surprise to Ramsay and Jon would utilize it in his plans, needs to draw out Ramsay, etc. That would have been fine then nothing else needs to change. As it is her hiding information makes her character less likeable. What redemption arc? Does not a person need to be redeemed before you push a redemption arc on them? Of all the characters on the show Sansa is one of the least in need of redemption. What on Westeros does she have to redeem herself for? Being a naive girl? ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/233 "2016-06-21T05:33:19Z")
> [@tingbudong](#): > > The kid does have some pretty solid sword moves and he makes use of that twist-parry manuever quite consistently in a number of episodes with good results. > > I will certainly be the first to say he’s a hot-head, a poor tactician and a amateurish when it comes to running a real army. That said, I believe he’s underrated as a big picture strategist. He’s pretty much the only one who seriously recognizes the threat north of the wall; the need to bring wildlings across the wall lest they become wights and the need to unify the north (and possibly Westeros) under a banner to confront the coming white walkers. Others are slowly drifting toward this (Melisandre, Davos, the Brotherhood etc.) but Snow was the only individual with any sort of power or influence (albiet small as Lord Commander) that actively pursued this as a strategy for the past several seasons. Everyone else continues to squabble. Also, he was the one who lead the defense of the wall during the Wildling attack once stabby-traitor-face got taken out. Jon leads with his heart and not with his head at times…and that’s why soldiers will fight for him for good or ill. And again another shitty thing about the Battle of the Bastards is they had an opportunity to actually sell that point as a rallying trait for the big picture when Ramsay literally was arrowing his own men to just whittle Jon’s forces. I thought that’s when we might see Umber do something interesting… but nope. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/234 "2016-06-21T05:46:28Z")
> [@treis](#): > > BTW after the first arrow how dumb do you have to be to keep running in a straight line? Zig zag or something. I haven’t seen someone run in a line that straight since Charlize Theron in Prometheus. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/235 "2016-06-21T05:59:51Z")
Yeah, I was kind of hoping that the big surprise would be the other Northmen turning on the Boltons and fighting alongside Jon. That would have been cool. But I think it had to play out this way, because it has the feel of being a very pivotal battle, and that the presence of the Knights of the Vale under Littlefinger is a big deal to the overall plot coming up. I still think that waiting for Jon’s men to be encircled was a tactical decision made by Littlefinger in the field, and not part of a grand strategy of Sansa’s. Sansa has no knowledge of military tactics, and wouldn’t even know what a pincer was or know that encirclement was a thing. She was a very good judge of Ramsay and knew that Jon was underestimating him. She had no idea how, but she knew that the battle was not going to go well. After failing to stop Jon from attacking, in desperation she rode back to Littlefinger and enlisted his help. She didn’t tell Jon about Littlefinger probably because she didn’t trust him and knew that Jon would accept his help. Basically Jon’s actions forced Sansa to allow Littlefinger to insert himself right into the middle of all this, which is a huge risk. But Jon left her no choice. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/236 "2016-06-21T06:11:27Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > And again another shitty thing about the Battle of the Bastards is they had an opportunity to actually sell that point as a rallying trait for the big picture when Ramsay literally was arrowing his own men to just whittle Jon’s forces. I thought that’s when we might see Umber do something interesting… but nope. Yep, why would Ramsay’s pike and shield infantry obey his order to advance when they’ve just seen him order his archers to fire on their own cavalry? Also they could have made a lot more of the rumors of John Snow being resurrected and the freaking giant on the field. None of Ramsay’s men have ever seen a giant before believing them to be only from stories, all of a sudden you’re facing one in battle, and the opposing army is being lead by a man thats come back from the dead (so the stories go). Soldiers are superstitious and something like this is enough to make them turn and flee or turn on Ramsay, and they even telegraphed this with Snow’s comments to Ramsay before the battle when he asked if he’s sure that his men would fight for him. Then nothing, Ramsay’s men all obey his commands perfectly, the North Remembers nothing… what a waste. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/237 "2016-06-21T06:19:35Z")
Is that what that charge was, hot headedness, after Rickon was killed? Wouldn’t it be better for Jon Snow to turn back and use that army to dish some revenge instead of commiting suicide? Did he just go berserk or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/238 "2016-06-21T06:28:47Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > And again another shitty thing about the Battle of the Bastards is they had an opportunity to actually sell that point as a rallying trait for the big picture when Ramsay literally was arrowing his own men to just whittle Jon’s forces. I thought that’s when we might see Umber do something interesting… but nope. Agreed. Missed opportunity and I believe it could have been incorporated with the arrival of the Vale forces, although it would have perhaps created a stronger North. Good for the Ramsay story, but probably wouldn’t fit in with the direction the writers are taking. I think the writers were going for a completely drained North that is now dependent on Littlefinger and the Vale. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/239 "2016-06-21T06:35:33Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Is that what that charge was, hot headedness, after Rickon was killed? Wouldn’t it be better for Jon Snow to turn back and use that army to dish some revenge instead of commiting suicide? Did he just go berserk or am I missing something? I guess it was meant to be mindless rage, their entire battle plan was based on letting the Bolton’s charge at them, they had dug trenchs with pits on both sides of their line exactly to stop them getting encircled. He was supposed to be the one to goad Ramsay into charging recklessly. John Snow was a terrible leader in this episode and he should have died for his stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/240 "2016-06-21T06:40:40Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Yep, why would Ramsay’s pike and shield infantry obey his order to advance when they’ve just seen him order his archers to fire on their own cavalry? Side question about this, since I’ve seen a few people mention it: when the Bolton archers were firing, and they showed Davos commanding his own group of archers (which he instructed not to fire so they don’t hit any of their own men), it seemed a bit strange to me, more on Davos’ part than Ramsay’s. I mean, this type of situation must have happened all the time in real medieval battles. Initial volleys of course make sense, when the entire enemy force is concentrated on the other side of a battlefield. But as soon as they mix up for hand-to-hand combat, any projectiles are going to run the risk of some friendly fire casualties. Yet it doesn’t seem like they’d just completely stop all projectile firing at that point and for the rest of the fight. Or would that be the typical protocol? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=13)