# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/341 "2016-06-22T15:47:45Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > That is hilarious!! I had never seen that clip (or the movie) before. And those bad guys are worse shots than Imperial Storm Troopers. 😃 [_The In-Laws_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_In-Laws_(1979_film)) is one of my favorite movies. Besides that one, I particularly like the scene where the Latin American General shows them his “art collection” and it turns out they are all black-velvet paintings. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/342 "2016-06-22T16:02:15Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > True, the fankwankery I’ve heard on this is that the wildfire plot may not have come not from Aerys II himself but his pyromancer Rossart, and that Bran is the reason changed so suddenly from being a reasonable ruler to a pyromaniac. > > Personally I don’t think it’s really all that likely, but it’s always fun to talk about time loops. Was he reasonable? I though he was known as the Mad King well before the “burn them all” incident. Didn’t they establish earlier on that due to incest, the Targaryans are pretty much 50/50 if they’re going to be crazy? ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/343 "2016-06-22T16:04:46Z")
Here’s the Serpentine, Serpentine move that came to mind. Starts around 3 minutes. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qfsMjASwTM) ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/344 "2016-06-22T16:24:55Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Was he reasonable? Every bit as reasonable as a king who burns a high-ranking nobleman to death in front of his son and causes a civil war can be, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/345 "2016-06-22T16:25:06Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Was he reasonable? I though he was known as the Mad King well before the “burn them all” incident. Didn’t they establish earlier on that due to incest, the Targaryans are pretty much 50/50 if they’re going to be crazy? He was described as a charming, generous and pretty laid back young prince but also easily angered and prideful. Things started to go downhill when he had been king for a couple of years and Tywin, as his Hand, was considered by more and more people to be the true leader of the Kingdoms. But he didn’t show clear signs of madness prior to the Defiance of Duskendale. Something happened during his imprisonment that turned him into a vengeful man who started to use fire against his enemies and become more and more fascinated with it. It was years later that the fateful Tourney at Harrenhall happened, so I’d say that his descent into madness took quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/346 "2016-06-22T16:38:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But yeah, personally I don’t really care nor want to know if Westeros is on a parallel Earth, a lost colony of a future Earth, an early version of pre-history Earth, a post apocalyptic Earth with dramatically different geology, inside a spaceship, part of a VR simulation, all in GRRMs imagination or whatever because that would ultimately cheapen the story at this point. Maybe the First Men were ancient space colonists. That doesn’t means I want them showing up with ray-guns in Season 8. I agree about the ray-guns in Season 8. But as to the nature of the planet…I do often wonder if it’ll be significant as to what’s going on. From the very beginning, we know something is _really_ weird about how their seasons work. They seem to have an earth-like day/night cycle, but erratic and unpredictable seasons. Whether that means anything by itself or is just the way things are, or more likely, if it’s tied into the White Walkers/“magic cycle” that seems to be happening…though we don’t know if the WW _cause_ Winter or just take advantage of it. Anyway, I’ve always thought about and wondered if there’s anything we can suspect about, say, the size of the planet based on what we know. How big is it? What’s on the rest of the planet? What if it’s an ice giant, and their thawed-out little corner of it is actually a precarious exception? I thought it was interesting that Arya mentioned this season about wanting to see what’s west of Westeros. What _is_ west of Westeros? Was that just a throwaway line, or an indication that we’re going to find out more about the planet? If we do find out more about the planet, what’s the likelihood at this point in the story that it’ll just be additional useless background information rather than a significant end-game revelation? ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/347 "2016-06-22T16:44:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [_The In-Laws_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_In-Laws_(1979_film)) is one of my favorite movies. Besides that one, I particularly like the scene where the Latin American General shows them his “art collection” and it turns out they are all black-velvet paintings. Mine too. “Look at the stripes - you can almost reach out and touch them!” Also: “A Zee?!” As for the show, I really hope everyone calms down on the Internet about these theories, (Bran is Bran the Builder and built the Wall, Bran is going to warg into a dragon and mind-rape the Mad King, Tyrion and Jon Snow will ride the other dragons), because I fear that the writers will just oblige us and this will be pure fan service from here on out. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/348 "2016-06-22T16:58:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What is the chance that Jaime will kill her to prevent such a thing, as he did with the mad king? That would be the ultimate tragedy for him. No way. Jaime would burn down all of Westoros before he killed Cersei. But Jaime is way out in the Riverlands. Could be that Cersei lights the fire while Jaime is still gone and unable to stop her. I agree with **Colibri** that Cersei is most likely to use it specifically to eliminate The Sparrows. She’s already shown her willingness to use a nuke to kill a snake, so this fits her sledgehammer approach to politics. Cersei will need to be desperate, but not necessarily suicidal to execute the wildfire plan. So it could happen sooner than we might think. Probably before her trial, since she knows how screwed she is. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/349 "2016-06-22T17:15:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > …Dany can land outside a city somewhere and give them the option of surrendering and acclaiming her queen or fighting. The first city might fight. Maybe the second city will as well. But the third, fourth, etc. aren’t going to fight once they hear what happened to the cities that opposed her. They will defect to her side and bring troops. All she needs is enough men to protect her from assassination. She can find her army on the way. She’d just be following her ancestor Aegon the Conqueror’s playbook that way. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > So instead of Nearly Headless Nick from the Harry Potter books, we could have Completely Headless Ned. That’s _Hedley_! > [@thirdname](#): > > Here’s an idea they could have used that would have justified Sansa not telling Jon that the Vale forces were coming, and made it less of a deus ex machina. > > They could have implied that there was a spy in Jon’s camp. At the meeting where Jon and Ramsay were discussing the relative size of their armies, Ramsay could have told Jon precisely how many troops he hard from each house, and exactly what Jon’s plans were. Or perhaps they could have learned it earlier than that, explaining more of Sansa’s secrecy. So, Sansa and Jon know there’s a spy among them, but they don’t know who, and they never find out. This would make it essential that nobody knows that Petyr is coming. Nice. I would’ve liked - even preferred - that. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > … > (1) Sansa beat Ramsay at his own game. He is a schemer who uses people, and is willing to do things such as fire arrows into a melee despite endangering some of his own soldiers. Sansa is an apprentice schemer, but she’s learning from the best. Her plan involved accepting that Rickon was already as good as dead and that Jon could be used as a potential pawn sacrifice. Ramsay’s plan lured Jon away from his makeshift defenses. Sansa’s plan lured Ramsay’s army away from the defenses of Winterfell. There’s a nice symmetry there. > > (2) The episode has a very strong theme of female empowerment. It’s most obvious in the conversation between Dany and Yara, but I think it includes Sansa as well. It feels right to think that Sansa was an active force in retaking Winterfell, beyond just writing a letter and begging for help. At one point she explicitly states that nobody can protect her. I think the unstated subtext is that she therefore must protect herself, implying that she is being more hands-on and active instead of reactive. Well said. > [@treis](#): > > …A Vale with forces divided should be in a very dangerous position. There’s nothing stopping that Lannister army at Riverrun from invading the Vale and it can get to the Vale faster than Littlefinger can return with his army… As noted upthread, the Vale is very mountainous, fortified at its few (single?) access points, and not easily attacked from outside. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/350 "2016-06-22T17:19:53Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > No way. Jaime would burn down all of Westoros before he killed Cersei. But Jaime is way out in the Riverlands. Could be that Cersei lights the fire while Jaime is still gone and unable to stop her. This is something I definitely don’t like about this season. Over the last two seasons it seems like with his growing wisdom he’s come to realize that Cersei manipulates him in the same way that she does everyone else and doesn’t really have his best interest at heart, and it seemed like their relationship had changed. He still wanted to be near her, but not in a “I’ll burn down the world for you” sort of way. But it seems like we’re back to square one with that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/351 "2016-06-22T18:14:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You mean like high explosive green napalm (AKA “wildfire”) or special high-tensile metal alloys (AKA Valerian steel)?:dubious: > > I realize that to certain individuals, the wrong type of sword or armor is as jarring as if Jon Snow rode into battle in an Iron Man suit wielding a lightsaber. But for most of us, all medieval weapons and armor are more or less appropriate for fantasy world settings. Wildfire has parallels with Greek Fire, and Valyrian steel seems to owe its properties more to magic than technology. But yeah, they don’t appear to be inappropriate to the level of technology we see. > [@](#): > > But yeah, personally I don’t really care nor want to know if Westeros is on a parallel Earth, a lost colony of a future Earth, an early version of pre-history Earth, a post apocalyptic Earth with dramatically different geology, inside a spaceship, part of a VR simulation, all in GRRMs imagination or whatever because that would ultimately cheapen the story at this point. Maybe the First Men were ancient space colonists. That doesn’t means I want them showing up with ray-guns in Season 8. Right. A medieval setting is extremely common in fantasy and science fiction, and there are an infinite variety of them: past or future Earths, other planets, other universes, dreams, whatever. I personally think of the GoT world as just being a different universe with certain similarities to our own. It doesn’t really matter what elements you allow when you’re setting your world up. You can have knights in armor along with elements of high technology, or magic, or mythical beasts, or alien monsters. But once you set up your premise of what kind of a world it is, you should stick with it. (Of course, sometimes it becomes a plot twist that what appears to the past is actually a post-apocalyptic future, but at this point that’s pretty trite.) Just because a world is imaginary doesn’t mean that anything goes. The GoT world, through many seasons, has been shown to be mainly consistent with medieval Europe (and medieval or ancient cultures in other continents), together with pretty standard fantasy elements like magic, witches, dragons, and the living dead thrown in. It would be fine if when you started you had everyone riding on kangaroos instead of horses. But if you introduce some hill tribe that rides around on kangaroos after five seasons of seeing nothing but horses, its going to be jarring. (I’m sure someone here will come up with some plausible explanation for it though.;)) A world can have anomalies or inconsistencies even if it’s fictional. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/352 "2016-06-22T19:09:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > …I also think the show went out of its way to show us that something was interceding to save Jon. His charge against hundreds of longbowmen should have been almost instantly fatal, but they kept showing the arrows falling all around him without him being touched. In the initial melee, the horses all veered around him and he was left alone, and even he looked confused by that. Then when he was actually fighting people, several times he was about to be cut down by someone he didn’t even see, only to have something happen to stop it every time. It was either a very weak part of an otherwise excellent battle depiction, or we were meant to feel that he was being protected in some way. I think the latter is more likely… > **[Plot Armor - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor)** > > Lucky Bob! He's The Protagonist of a story, The Hero whose predestined role is to oppose — maybe even defeat — the villain. He's essential to the plot, which means it is assumed he will progress through the story until at least the … > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > …Dany is invading with at 3 different raid and pillage cultures. One of which is also really big on rape and slavery. Those groups probably make up, what, 80-90% of her military? I get that the dragons are impressive, but I think that luster would wear off a bit after conquest and they’re just hanging out and not doing anything their cultures are based around. I suspect she may appoint a new khal and order the Dothraki to return to Essos once she’s won back the Iron Throne. Whether or not she can make it stick is another thing. > [@Colibri](#): > > [Littlefinger] made up his own several seasons ago: the [Mockingbird.](http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/a/a4/House-Baelish-Main-Shield.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20160312092544) > > We’ve seen it on several communications from Littlefinger… We also saw it on the sails of his ship. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/353 "2016-06-22T19:26:38Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > [Plot Armor - TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor) Jon’s plot armor was so strong it brought him back from the dead once. It’s not plot armor that keeps him from being killed again, since Beric has been brought back many times. It’s that using the same device over and over for a main character would be boring. Even if you have plot armor you usually aren’t shown escaping death more than a couple times per episode. The fact that Jon avoided being killed again by pure chance several times within a couple of minutes I think did indicate he was under some special protection. Maybe the Lord of Light is just lazy and figures it’s easier just to save him in the nick of time rather than having to resurrect him over and over. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/354 "2016-06-22T20:18:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The fact that Jon avoided being killed again by pure chance several times within a couple of minutes I think did indicate he was under some special protection. Maybe. But Tormund made it too. A lot of other people did. _Most_ of the ones in the initial charge died, sure. But not everyone. There’s nothing special about Wildling #47 not taking some arrows, or getting trampled, or stabbed. Just skill and a lot of luck. Kind of reminded me of, I think, Robert Duvall’s scene in Apocalypse Now IIRC…the colonel/whatever just walking around and talking like nothing’s happening while shells are falling next to him, I guess realizing that either he’ll be hit or he won’t so whatever; and apparently that’s been working out well for him so far. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/355 "2016-06-22T20:38:07Z")
> [@troub](#): > > Maybe. But Tormund made it too. A lot of other people did. I and (I think) **Sam Stone** are talking especially about a maybe 60-second sequence where Jon almost gets killed about a half-dozen times but then at the last second someone or something comes out of the blue and prevents it: the attacker is killed by someone else, ridden down by a horse, and so on and so on. It’s not the fact that Jon survived, but that he was apparently miraculously saved over and over by a fluke in a short time that makes it look he was under some kind of supernatural protection. The others who survived weren’t shown dodging death repeatedly like that. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/356 "2016-06-22T20:53:51Z")
“The very molecules protect you!” From back when I was 13, Bink had the coolest magical talent, I didn’t know Pierce Anthony was a pederast that hated women and that the Xanth Series would fall right off a cliff after A Spell for Chameleon. Anyway, that’s what Jon’s battle armor reminded me of. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/357 "2016-06-22T21:22:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It would be fine if when you started you had everyone riding on kangaroos instead of horses. But if you introduce some hill tribe that rides around on kangaroos after five seasons of seeing nothing but horses, its going to be jarring. (I’m sure someone here will come up with some plausible explanation for it though.;)) Well, it would explain how the kookaburras got into the jungle. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/358 "2016-06-22T21:26:51Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Well, it would explain how the kookaburras got into the jungle. Maybe Jon will show up with [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6dRiy4si8E) on his shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/359 "2016-06-22T21:36:43Z")
> [@troub](#): > > Kind of reminded me of, I think, Robert Duvall’s scene in Apocalypse Now IIRC…the colonel/whatever just walking around and talking like nothing’s happening while shells are falling next to him, I guess realizing that either he’ll be hit or he won’t so whatever; and apparently that’s been working out well for him so far. Yeah, but as Willard noted, Kilgore walked around like he just knew nothing was going to happen to him. Jon Snow was shitting himself from the time he saw the mounted troops upon him until his head poked up out of the scrum. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/360 "2016-06-22T21:51:22Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Yeah, but as Willard noted, Kilgore walked around like he just knew nothing was going to happen to him. Jon Snow was shitting himself from the time he saw the mounted troops upon him until his head poked up out of the scrum. Yeah, Jon isn’t being fatalistic or oblivious to the possibility of death. He’s very much trying to avoid it. He isn’t aware of his own protections. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=19)