# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/21 "2016-06-20T02:50:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > If anything Littlefinger would try to marry her to Robin. Robin is her first cousin, and that’s by blood, not marriage. However, that may not be considered incest in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/22 "2016-06-20T02:55:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Robin is her first cousin, and that’s by blood, not marriage. However, that may not be considered incest in Westeros. That was relatively common in the Middle Ages, and not considered incest. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/23 "2016-06-20T02:58:19Z")
After all their meaningful looks, I’m wondering if wedding bells are in store for Dani and Yara.😃 ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/24 "2016-06-20T02:59:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Jon seems to have acquired plot armor and remains free of serious consequences for his poor decisions. I mean, he did _die_. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/25 "2016-06-20T03:01:50Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > I mean, he did _die_. For like 5 minutes. Don’t exaggerate ---
**Author:** ![Tixenfleaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@Tixenfleaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tixenfleaz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/26 "2016-06-20T03:09:49Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The Second Battle of Winterfell was really quite spectacularly done. Based on what we had seen in previous episodes, I did expect the reinforcements from the Vale to be crucial. However, it does seem like it’s become a habit to have battles always be resolved by the Cavalry unexpectedly charging in at the very last minute (Tywin at the Battle of the Blackwater, Stannis at the Battle of Castle Black, Dothraki and dragons at Mereen). A bit _deus ex machina_ for my taste. Would’ve preferred to have Jon Snow win on his own, or seeing the giant sacrifice himself by falling and breaking the shield wall, followed by the flanks being rolled by the Wildlings. But then Sansa wouldn’t be in debt to Littlefinger, so… Wonderful battle, though. Don’t know how much it cost them, but every penny and then some is right there on screen. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/27 "2016-06-20T03:26:22Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > I mean, he did _die_. He got better. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/28 "2016-06-20T03:30:25Z")
BTW after the first arrow how dumb do you have to be to keep running in a straight line? Zig zag or something. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/29 "2016-06-20T03:32:58Z")
> [@treis](#): > > BTW after the first arrow how dumb do you have to be to keep running in a straight line? Zig zag or something. “Serpentine! _Serpentine!_” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/30 "2016-06-20T03:33:39Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I don’t understand what the masters thought would happen, specially once they saw that Dany was back. They simply have no frame of reference for what fully matured dragons can do in combat. > [@Oakminster](#): > > I think Littlefinger was the target of the message Sansa was seen writing and presumptively sent by raven. Wonder what she promised him in exchange? I assumed it was her hand in marriage, now that she’s a free woman again. It is the most valuable thing she has to offer. > [@Colibri](#): > > Maybe, but legally speaking Littlefinger is Sansa’s uncle by marriage. Technically it might still be incest. I doubt it. We know the Faith considers relations between siblings (& presumably ancestors & descendants) to be incest, but Littlefinger isn’t even Sansa’s blood uncle. Robin is her first cousin by blood and is considered a valid marriage prospect. One thing is certain; Littlefinger didn’t send Sansa an army purely out of guilt for turning her over to the Boltons. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/31 "2016-06-20T03:36:55Z")
This episode was incredible. I knew there would be a big battle, but I didn’t realize it would be “Saving Private Rickon”. Holy fuck that was impressively shot. There are very few huge-budget movies that have pulled off battles that well. The show-makers should be proud of themselves. Not only was it a gory, stomach-churning masterpiece, I was impressed with Sansa’s strategy. She _knew_ that the Knights of the Vale were coming, but did not tell Jon. Why? Because she didn’t trust him - because he didn’t trust her. She knew Ramsay. She was willing to essentially write-off Rickon’s life as already forfeit. She knew Ramsay would try a trick. And he did - he drew Jon’s forces into an attack, away from the defenses they had prepared. (Jon has many admirable qualities, but he’s his father’s son when it comes to honor leading to idiocy.) But this was essential to _Sansa’s_ strategy as well! They simply could not take Winterfell with their forces, nor did they have resources for a siege. They had to lure as much of Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell as possible. For that to happen Ramsay would have to be convinced that in doing so he would guarantee victory. (And in this case, it would have been a slow, crushing, brutal victory that a sadist could savor.) So the “cavalry arrives in the nick of time” cliché doesn’t apply here. It arrived exactly when Sansa and Littlefinger meant it to. If they had arrived earlier and word had gotten out, Ramsay would just turtle up in Winterfell. They had to make sure he completely committed to the slaughter. And that meant that there had to _be_ a slaughter. Just as Sansa was willing to write off the life of Rickon in order to take back Winterfell, she was also willing to write off the life of Jon Snow in order to lure Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell so the Knights of the Vale could destroy them. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/32 "2016-06-20T03:42:14Z")
I was wondering why Ramsay’s bannermen continued to support him even after he wussed out on Jon Snow’s challenge of a one-on-one duel. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/33 "2016-06-20T03:46:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was wondering why Ramsay’s bannermen continued to support him even after he wussed out on Jon Snow’s challenge of a one-on-one duel. The guys who heard him wuss out were probably the flay displays. ---
**Author:** ![Tixenfleaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@Tixenfleaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tixenfleaz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/34 "2016-06-20T04:04:20Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > So the “cavalry arrives in the nick of time” cliché doesn’t apply here. It arrived exactly when Sansa and Littlefinger meant it to. If they had arrived earlier and word had gotten out, Ramsay would just turtle up in Winterfell. They had to make sure he completely committed to the slaughter. And that meant that there had to _be_ a slaughter. > > Just as Sansa was willing to write off the life of Rickon in order to take back Winterfell, she was also willing to write off the life of Jon Snow in order to lure Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell so the Knights of the Vale could destroy them. Nice. I’m hoping the writers put as much thought into it as you did. Would definitely be better than the whole, tired “saved In the nick of time” cliche. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/35 "2016-06-20T04:05:48Z")
During much of that battle I found myself thinking: You know, Ramsey is a pretty effective leader. Sure, he’s a sadistic torturer to those unfortunate enough to meet him in person, but in terms of the vast majority of common folk, he’d probably be a pretty solid Warden of the North. And he clearly has a superior military mind than Jon Snow. So maybe him winning wouldn’t be the worst thing for the people of the north. That said, there’s few things I find more viscerally satisfying than seeing cavalry ride down infantry like grass. I particularly liked how the wildling dude\* foreshadowed it earlier in the episode. (“I’ve seen what men on horseback can do to us.”) \*“Tormund Giantsbane” according to IMDb, which is a weird name for the best friend of the last giant, but whatever. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > I was impressed with Sansa’s strategy. She _knew_ that the Knights of the Vale were coming, but did not tell Jon. Why? Because she didn’t trust him - because he didn’t trust her. She knew Ramsay. She was willing to essentially write-off Rickon’s life as already forfeit. She knew Ramsay would try a trick. And he did - he drew Jon’s forces into an attack, away from the defenses they had prepared. (Jon has many admirable qualities, but he’s his father’s son when it comes to honor leading to idiocy.) > > But this was essential to _Sansa’s_ strategy as well! They simply could not take Winterfell with their forces, nor did they have resources for a siege. They had to lure as much of Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell as possible. For that to happen Ramsay would have to be convinced that in doing so he would guarantee victory. (And in this case, it would have been a slow, crushing, brutal victory that a sadist could savor.) > > So the “cavalry arrives in the nick of time” cliché doesn’t apply here. It arrived exactly when Sansa and Littlefinger meant it to. If they had arrived earlier and word had gotten out, Ramsay would just turtle up in Winterfell. They had to make sure he completely committed to the slaughter. And that meant that there had to _be_ a slaughter. > > Just as Sansa was willing to write off the life of Rickon in order to take back Winterfell, she was also willing to write off the life of Jon Snow in order to lure Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell so the Knights of the Vale could destroy them. I like this analysis very much. Thanks for posting it; it definitely takes the edge off my cliche hives. The thought of Sansa and Littlefinger watching the slaughter much as we were, waiting for Ramsay to fully commit his infantry, is hardcore. Less so for Littlefinger, who has to face fewer combatants the longer he waits, but for Sansa, who loses more friends the longer she waits. That girl has ice in her veins. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/36 "2016-06-20T04:11:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > BTW after the first arrow how dumb do you have to be to keep running in a straight line? Zig zag or something. > [@cmyk](#): > > “Serpentine! _Serpentine!_” My thoughts exactly. There’s no way an archer can hit you if you don’t run in a straight line. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/37 "2016-06-20T04:13:42Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > This episode was incredible. I knew there would be a big battle, but I didn’t realize it would be “Saving Private Rickon”. Holy fuck that was impressively shot. There are very few huge-budget movies that have pulled off battles that well. The show-makers should be proud of themselves. > > Not only was it a gory, stomach-churning masterpiece, I was impressed with Sansa’s strategy. She _knew_ that the Knights of the Vale were coming, but did not tell Jon. Why? Because she didn’t trust him - because he didn’t trust her. She knew Ramsay. She was willing to essentially write-off Rickon’s life as already forfeit. She knew Ramsay would try a trick. And he did - he drew Jon’s forces into an attack, away from the defenses they had prepared. (Jon has many admirable qualities, but he’s his father’s son when it comes to honor leading to idiocy.) > > But this was essential to _Sansa’s_ strategy as well! They simply could not take Winterfell with their forces, nor did they have resources for a siege. They had to lure as much of Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell as possible. For that to happen Ramsay would have to be convinced that in doing so he would guarantee victory. (And in this case, it would have been a slow, crushing, brutal victory that a sadist could savor.) > > So the “cavalry arrives in the nick of time” cliché doesn’t apply here. It arrived exactly when Sansa and Littlefinger meant it to. If they had arrived earlier and word had gotten out, Ramsay would just turtle up in Winterfell. They had to make sure he completely committed to the slaughter. And that meant that there had to _be_ a slaughter. > > Just as Sansa was willing to write off the life of Rickon in order to take back Winterfell, she was also willing to write off the life of Jon Snow in order to lure Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell so the Knights of the Vale could destroy them. I agree, that’s a nice analysis. However, it does mean that Sansa, not surprisingly, has gone stone cold bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/38 "2016-06-20T04:15:55Z")
Ditto on the zig zagging. Glad to see Tormund kill the northern lord(Umber?) who mentioned killing wildlings earlier in the season. I also went from hating Ramsay’s vicious baby eaters to yelling [“Who’s a good boy?!”](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd-2oH8p69Y) at the TV. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/39 "2016-06-20T04:20:29Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > However, it does mean that Sansa, not surprisingly, has gone stone cold bitch. I keep thinking back to that scene in season 2 when Tyrion saved Sansa from Joffrey: [I am loyal to King Joffrey, my one true love.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baDBgSJpI6o&t=2m38s) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/40 "2016-06-20T04:32:20Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > But this was essential to _Sansa’s_ strategy as well! They simply could not take Winterfell with their forces, nor did they have resources for a siege. They had to lure as much of Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell as possible. For that to happen Ramsay would have to be convinced that in doing so he would guarantee victory. (And in this case, it would have been a slow, crushing, brutal victory that a sadist could savor.) > > So the “cavalry arrives in the nick of time” cliché doesn’t apply here. It arrived exactly when Sansa and Littlefinger meant it to. If they had arrived earlier and word had gotten out, Ramsay would just turtle up in Winterfell. They had to make sure he completely committed to the slaughter. And that meant that there had to _be_ a slaughter. > > Just as Sansa was willing to write off the life of Rickon in order to take back Winterfell, she was also willing to write off the life of Jon Snow in order to lure Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell so the Knights of the Vale could destroy them. I would think if Ramsay turtled up in Winterfell, then Wun Wun could still knock the gates down and the combined forces could take down the Boltons. But I guess if Ramsay was holed up in Winterfell he’d have some different plan and still outmaneuver Jon. So I guess that was really the only way to defeat Ramsay was to not let Jon in on the plan. It should be interesting to see what happens next at Winterfell, since Jon and Sansa can’t and don’t trust each other. And since the Lannisters just took back a different castle that rebels had captured. I’m guessing it won’t be addressed next episode, but should be interesting next season. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=3)