# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/381 "2016-06-23T11:00:59Z")
I forgot to add one observation that indicates a more extensive communication between Sansa and Littlefinger: Sansa leaves the negotiations with Ramsay early; at that time I assumed that she was heading back to the camp, but later we see her arrive with Littlefinger’s cavalry. That means she must have known when and where to find him, which isn’t possible without additional information given to her. That she knew without doubt that help was on its way and would arrive in time makes her silence appear even more sinister. Jon could not just have been informed, they could have also planned the battle together. Of course, her absence from the camp is odd, since no one seemed to care that the Lady of Winterfell was missing during such a dangerous time, but, oh well … ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/382 "2016-06-23T11:39:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I, for one, love the theory that what we see in the intro graphic is, in fact, a somewhat factual easter egg =\> the world they live on is the _inside_ of a hollow sphere. I know there are all sorts of scientific reasons that wouldn’t be the case. My answer would be “Magic, motherf…” Or suitably advanced science. Like they are inside a massive habitat (presumably in space). The long random winters being due to a malfunction in the life support system. Although I suspect the opening graphics are supposed to represent a sort of stylized diorama. Like a fancy map of the world a lord might commission a talented maester to make for his young son. There was the plot of an anime awhile back: The anime series Last Exile revolves around two warring civilizations with a sort of steampunk industrial revolution level of technology, monitored by a more advanced civilization. Rapid climate change is driving the conflict and the two societies are separated by a jet-stream like meteorological phenomenon. By the end of the series it is revealed they are inside a massive space craft and the climate change and jet stream are being caused by a malfunction in the life support system. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/383 "2016-06-23T13:56:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Although I suspect the opening graphics are supposed to represent a sort of stylized diorama. Like a fancy map of the world a lord might commission a talented maester to make for his young son. [The designers initially envisioned](http://www.artofthetitle.com/title/game-of-thrones/) it as a model being viewed by a bunch of monks, and also as something created over years with the best materials for a nobleman. They also say the hollowness was for cinematographic reasons. [Conspiracy Theorist]But they could be lying! They lied about Jon Snow being dead! They lie about everything! Gibber!!![/CT] ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/384 "2016-06-23T14:17:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > And not also west of it? You think the world is flat? > [@clairobscur](#): > > Very possibly. That’s not uncommon in fantasy settings… Including in Tolkien’s early writings about Middle-earth. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/385 "2016-06-23T14:29:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I, for one, love the theory that what we see in the intro graphic is, in fact, a somewhat factual easter egg =\> the world they live on is the _inside_ of a hollow sphere. I know there are all sorts of scientific reasons that wouldn’t be the case. My answer would be “Magic, motherf…” Maybe it’s a Dyson sphere around a very small (or artificial) star… though I’m not sure how they’d get a day/night cycle and seasons in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/386 "2016-06-23T15:58:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Of course, but they don’t do it within a single minute. This scene was almost cartoonish in the number of different threats Jon dodged. The arrows weren’t the worst part. One second he’s staring at a solid wall of horses charging towards him, then suddenly he’s standing unharmed while all the horses swerved around him. He should have been trampled immediately, or at least the first wave of riders should have tried to cut him down. But for the first few seconds it looked like he was being completely ignored - even though he was pretty much the only target at that moment. And even he looked surprised by what happened and it took him a second to regroup and start fighting. The way it was shot made it look a little strange, too. When a hero survives because of plot armor, the writers hope you don’t notice the implausibility. To me, it felt like they very much wanted us to see that Jon was surviving miraculously - or at least plant the idea that there might be some sort of supernatural protection around Jon in that battle. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/387 "2016-06-23T16:03:45Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > There’s no reason to believe that their known world is but a tiny fraction of whatever is out there (or to a lesser extent, that it _is_ even spherical, but that does present other issues). We know there’s at least one other massive and almost completely unexplored land mass, Sothoryos, to the southeast of Essos. That’s a pretty good indication that they don’t really know much about what’s in their own world, and there could be quite a lot more to it than we know of. Of course. But although **alphaboi’s** post was intended to apply there was nothing but ocean between western Westeros and eastern Essos, even if there is a continent in between both continents are still both east and west of one another. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/388 "2016-06-23T16:04:15Z")
When that happened I wondered if Ramsay had given his knights orders NOT to kill Jon, because he wanted him captured alive so he could play with him for a while. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/389 "2016-06-23T16:05:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The arrows weren’t the worst part. One second he’s staring at a solid wall of horses charging towards him, then suddenly he’s standing unharmed while all the horses swerved around him. That’s not how i remembered, the horses that were charging from behind swerved around him and crashed into the Bolton forces. His own forces ran past him and crashed into the enemy, the enemy wasn’t going around him. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/390 "2016-06-23T16:33:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When a hero survives because of plot armor, the writers hope you don’t notice the implausibility. To me, it felt like they very much wanted us to see that Jon was surviving miraculously - or at least plant the idea that there might be some sort of supernatural protection around Jon in that battle. I think that anyone who thinks that there wasn’t something unusual involved in Jon’s miraculous survival of threat after threat wasn’t really paying attention. It was pretty obvious that something beyond the normal bullet-dodging by the hero was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/391 "2016-06-23T16:44:20Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The arrows weren’t the worst part. One second he’s staring at a solid wall of horses charging towards him, then suddenly he’s standing unharmed while all the horses swerved around him. He should have been trampled immediately, or at least the first wave of riders should have tried to cut him down. But for the first few seconds it looked like he was being completely ignored - even though he was pretty much the only target at that moment. And even he looked surprised by what happened and it took him a second to regroup and start fighting. The way it was shot made it look a little strange, too. Davos saved him by ordering the cavalary forward. It was surprising, for Jon and the viewers, intentionally so. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/392 "2016-06-23T17:07:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think that anyone who thinks that there wasn’t something unusual involved in Jon’s miraculous survival of threat after threat wasn’t really paying attention. It was pretty obvious that something beyond the normal bullet-dodging by the hero was going on. In season 1 of GoT I would agree. But the random implausibilities have been piled far too high this season for me to share your confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/393 "2016-06-23T17:14:54Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Davos saved him by ordering the cavalary forward. It was surprising, for Jon and the viewers, intentionally so. [Here’s the battle.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToOIvD5mlow) At 0:45, even though Ramsay was able to hit a running Rickon at a much greater distance, only one of hundreds of Bolton archers is even able to hit Jon’s horse when he’s closer and charging straight at them. In the sequence between 2:20 and 3:20, by my count Jon is attacked by or attacks at least 15 or 16 opponents in 60 seconds. In at least 3 cases, his survival appears miraculous, his opponent being run down by a horse or Jon swinging around at the last second. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/394 "2016-06-23T17:23:32Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Davos saved him by ordering the cavalary forward. It was surprising, for Jon and the viewers, intentionally so. I will have to re-watch, but I thought Ramsay’s forces got to John before Davos’ did. In any event, a man on foot should not have survived a massive frontal assault by knights on horses. Mounted charges were devastating to foot soldiers. As for the multiple rain of arrows targeted at Jon, the producers could have easily showed him surviving by hiding behind a makeshift shield. Instead, they just had every arrow miss him, while seemingly dotting every couple of square feet around him. That seemed like they were intentionally saying, ‘Jon Snow is being protected’. But sure, it could have been some producers going for ‘cool’ battle scenes and sacrificing realism. But it just seemed more obvious that theu were making a point. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/395 "2016-06-23T17:26:53Z")
On the Nerdist recap they pointed out something else: there was a scene where Jon digs himself out from the pile of bodies, and the camera flies up to show him encicled in exactly the same way as Daeneris was shown encircled by her own army when she first freed the Unsullied, I think it was. And apparently one of the producers has said that this was intentional. That’s very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/396 "2016-06-23T17:27:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I will have to re-watch, but I thought Ramsay’s forces got to John before Davos’ did. In any event, a man on foot should not have survived a massive frontal assault by knights on horses. Mounted charges were devastating to foot soldiers. > > As for the multiple rain of arrows targeted at Jon, the producers could have easily showed him surviving by hiding behind a makeshift shield. Instead, they just had every arrow miss him, while seemingly dotting every couple of square feet around him. That seemed like they were intentionally saying, ‘Jon Snow is being protected’. > > But sure, it could have been some producers going for ‘cool’ battle scenes and sacrificing realism. But it just seemed more obvious that theu were making a point. The horses charged into each other in front of Jon, then the arrows started falling which left almost everyone on foot. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/397 "2016-06-23T17:28:55Z")
To me, the notion that the Lord of Light could be literally holding his hand over Jon seems… wrong, somehow. Unearned, a too simple chosen-for-the-sake-of-being-chosen explanation. I mean, if Jon eventually does save the day (and Westeros), as many expect, or is at least instrumental in doing so, then the whole thing would be a literal ‘because God willed it’. There just doesn’t seem much of a point to the story that way. But yeah, there sure were a lot of implausible dodges and last second saves that allowed Jon to survive the fray. If there’s anything to the Holy Hand of Protection, then I think we’ll need at least some bit of dialogue next episode to settle the matter—something like Jon saying, ‘by all rights, I should be dead’, with Melisandre mumbling something about how the Lord protects his chosen, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/398 "2016-06-23T17:37:20Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > On the Nerdist recap they pointed out something else: there was a scene where Jon digs himself out from the pile of bodies, and the camera flies up to show him encicled in exactly the same way as Daeneris was shown encircled by her own army when she first freed the Unsullied, I think it was. And apparently one of the producers has said that this was intentional. That’s very interesting. It was when [she was surrounded by the freed slaves](http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/dany-mhysa.jpg)in Mereen when they called her Mhysa and they did the crowd sufing. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/399 "2016-06-23T17:38:52Z")
Wasn’t it at the Battle of Monongahela that an ill Washington had two horses shot under him and his coat was pierced by four musket shots, yet he wasn’t injured at all (while almost all the other officers were killed or severly wounded)? And when it comes to sheer survivability, it’s hard to beat [Wenseslao Moguel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenseslao_Moguel). [Outdo that, Arya!] I see your point about divine intervention, and fiction can’t be as weird as reality without losing verisimilitude - but Arya has taught me that we might be in the middle of the “drama for drama’s sake”-stage in GoT. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/400 "2016-06-23T17:41:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I will have to re-watch, but I thought Ramsay’s forces got to John before Davos’ did. In any event, a man on foot should not have survived a massive frontal assault by knights on horses. Mounted charges were devastating to foot soldiers. > > As for the multiple rain of arrows targeted at Jon, the producers could have easily showed him surviving by hiding behind a makeshift shield. Instead, they just had every arrow miss him, while seemingly dotting every couple of square feet around him. That seemed like they were intentionally saying, ‘Jon Snow is being protected’. > [@DigitalC](#): > > The horses charged into each other in front of Jon, then the arrows started falling which left almost everyone on foot. Rewatching it, Jon’s cavalry reached him first, before the Bolton forces did. But actually, it was lucky for Jon that his horse was shot out from under him where it was. If he hadn’t fallen where he did, the Bolton forces would have overwhelmed him before his own cavalry reached him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=21)