# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/501 "2016-06-25T23:43:29Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > As I recall it, it was a list of Robert Baratheon’s ancestors, every single one of which had black hair. That was the clue that tipped off Ned, and Jon Arryn before him, that Joffrey wasn’t a Baratheon. Which, BTW, IMHO, was a far dumber plot point than any being nitpicked in this episode. Deciding that a dark-haired man could not possibly have fathered blond children with his blond wife? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/502 "2016-06-26T00:19:29Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > Which, BTW, IMHO, was a far dumber plot point than any being nitpicked in this episode. Deciding that a dark-haired man could not possibly have fathered blond children with his blond wife? Hey, evidently genetics works differently in the GoT world! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/503 "2016-06-26T00:41:24Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Closed Captioning spells the names out all the time. Closed captioning, like dubbing, is a border case. It is part of the _presentation_ of the show, for only some audiences. External materials–IMDb, wikis, interviews about the production–are not part of the show at all. > [@Colibri](#): > > Hey, evidently genetics works differently in the GoT world! That’s right. There have been references to Lannister hair and Targaryen hair as well. Not all bloodlines have such characteristics, but for those that do, it seems to be definitive. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/504 "2016-06-26T00:43:28Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Hey, evidently genetics works differently in the GoT world! Given the other kinds of extraordinary things that can be inherited in this world, I can go along with the Baratheon brown hair thing. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/505 "2016-06-26T00:49:45Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Of course, the series shows so few ravens that they might be more versatile than their counterparts in the books. Unless I’m forgetting something, the suggestion of the show is that any castle with live ravens can send a message to any other castle in the network, which seems to be include every inhabited castle between Sunspear and Black. They can fly to islands like Dragonstone, but not cross the Narrow Sea. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/506 "2016-06-26T01:02:48Z")
While I’ve heard that (presumably from the books) that the Targaryens were very inbred, in the show there are many marriages between different houses for political purposes. Are y’all suggesting that in the GoT world, the father’s genes are dominant? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/507 "2016-06-26T01:06:08Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > While I’ve heard that (presumably from the books) that the Targaryens were very inbred, in the show there are many marriages between different houses for political purposes. Are y’all suggesting that in the GoT world, the father’s genes are dominant? I don’t think there’s any reason to draw any kind of general rule out of this. Baratheon men have dark-haired children. That’s all. Generic? Magic? Who knows why. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/508 "2016-06-26T02:06:35Z")
The most familiar way the ravens would work is like homing pigeons, which would mean that traders or someone else running the routes between cities would bring one or more ravens to other cities or castles, who would only know how to get to their home castle. So you take 10 ravens whose home is King’s Landing and send in the back of a trader’s cart to Winterfell. Now Winterfell can send 10 messages to King’s Landing when the ravens fly home. Some other trader (or the same guy on a return route) would bring 10 Ravens from Winterfell to King’s Landing, and now they can send return messages. Once those ravens reached home, someone would have to physically transport them to another city. But we’ve seen nothing that suggests this is how it works, nor have we been told that they’re trained to fly between two castles or really anything about how they work. That’s just how it would work if medieval Earth were to set up a bird communication network. Aside: homing pigeons uses a variety of senses to be able to do this bizarre trick of theirs, but the primary one they actually use is smell. When the wind comes from a different direction, bringing in the scents from that way, they learn what different ways smell like - so they build a smell map in their head, which is the main tool they use to find their way home. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/509 "2016-06-26T02:24:03Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > Are y’all suggesting that in the GoT world, the father’s genes are dominant? Sansa and Rickon Stark have their mothers hair color, Bran and Arya their father’s. Robb is sort of in between. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/510 "2016-06-26T02:50:11Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The most familiar way the ravens would work is like homing pigeons, which would mean that traders or someone else running the routes between cities would bring one or more ravens to other cities or castles, who would only know how to get to their home castle. > … > But we’ve seen nothing that suggests this is how it works, nor have we been told that they’re trained to fly between two castles or really anything about how they work. That’s just how it would work if medieval Earth were to set up a bird communication network. I think we can be pretty sure that it does not work this way in Westeros. Stannis had ravens dispatched simultaneously, on no notice, to _all_ the high lords, that “the King Joffrey Baratheon is neither a true King, nor a true Baratheon.” There is never the slightest hint that any lord or maester needs to wait for any particular raven availability to send a message. Outgoing messages are shut down only by killing every bird at a castle. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/511 "2016-06-26T03:21:08Z")
You would expect major castles to have stockpiles of ravens for other major castles. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/512 "2016-06-26T03:41:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think there’s any reason to draw any kind of general rule out of this. Baratheon men have dark-haired children. That’s all. Generic? Magic? Who knows why. It would be funny if GRRM’s final wink to the audience is that we somehow find out that Joffrey, Mycella and Tommen were all indeed Robert’s. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/513 "2016-06-26T04:09:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Sansa and Rickon Stark have their mothers hair color, Bran and Arya their father’s. Robb is sort of in between. … and Jon Snow has brown hair, which means that R+L=J\* cannot be true. - (I can elaborate in a spoiler box if anyone is unfamiliar) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/514 "2016-06-26T06:10:37Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > … and Jon Snow has brown hair, which means that R+L=J\* cannot be true. My point is that in general you can’t tell anything from hair color. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/515 "2016-06-26T06:55:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Neither the [opening](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8) nor the [closing credits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DDcySl0sg) give the characters’ names, only the actors. > > We have not seen the names of most characters spelled out on the TV show. You cannot deduce the spelling merely from watching the TV show. You would have to consult other sources for that. > > Based solely on watching the show, Jamie and Jaime are equally valid spellings, as are Ramsey and Ramsay. As already stated, closed captioning correctly spells the names all the time. That’s part of the TV show broadcast. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Closed captioning, like dubbing, is a border case. It is part of the _presentation_ of the show, for only some audiences. External materials–IMDb, wikis, interviews about the production–are not part of the show at all. Closed captioning is neither border nor external. They’re part of the broadcast show itself. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/516 "2016-06-26T07:49:22Z")
The show doesn’t provide spellings, however there are clear correct spellings. Just by reading through the SDMB threads anybody with any sense should have no problem picking up these correct spellings, with an occasional lapse. If people like **Cryttikyl1** want to deliberately use “wrong” spellings, and in his case it is so consistent that it is clearly deliberate whatever he claims, then he should be able to. He should stop claiming is is not deliberate though. , ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/517 "2016-06-26T10:01:05Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > There is never the slightest hint that any lord or maester needs to wait for any particular raven availability to send a message. Outgoing messages are shut down only by killing every bird at a castle. It makes sense for a tv show with limited resources that ravens can find more than one location; as long as they are not shown studying maps, I’m fine with it. Strike that, I’d love to see that. 😉 Because in truth, [mock spoiler alert] Littlefinger’s sigil is a hint that he is the birds’ agent chosen by the planetary incarnation of Loki, the Three-Eyed-Crow. The birds have come to know that their forefathers once ruled [possibly actual spoiler alert ahead] [Old Earth](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl8WQ8_iQSk) [/alert], long before humans arrived, and they [want to rule again](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLJtKlVVZw). Aside: Yes, I think the Thousand Worlds hypothesis has merits (If you don’t want to know anything about it, don’t follow the first link). It might even be more fun to see it referenced in the series’ epilogue onscreen than read about it. I also think that Martin has a lot of trouble to put all those references to his own work and our ancient mythologies (there is plenty of Loki in the Three-Eyed-Crow, just like crows and ravens show Norse-like characteristics) into a coherent picture. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/518 "2016-06-26T12:11:56Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > It would be funny if GRRM’s final wink to the audience is that we somehow find out that Joffrey, Mycella and Tommen were all indeed Robert’s. 😃 Except that Cersei confirmed to Ned that there’s no possibility of that. After she murdered (my conjecture) her firstborn dark-haired child, she never again allowed Robert to inseminate her. Robert was always too drunk to notice that. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/519 "2016-06-26T14:22:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Except that Cersei confirmed to Ned that there’s no possibility of that. After she murdered (my conjecture) her firstborn dark-haired child, she never again allowed Robert to inseminate her. Robert was always too drunk to notice that. Yes, I guess because it’s fiction we have to take her word for it. In real life, one might question the complete accuracy of her recollections. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/520 "2016-06-26T14:55:11Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Closed captioning is neither border nor external. They’re part of the broadcast show itself. Most people never watch it with captions. You are contending that they are all missing an integral part of the work? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=27)