# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/61 "2016-06-20T09:19:58Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > It wasn’t clear to me how Dany got ships. She only burned the one? I expect the rest took a look around, realized they were wearing metal armor on wooden ships (filled with barrels of highly flammable pitch) and facing opponents that were essentially airborne flamethrowers. They took the hint. I like the Sansa-theories in this thread and would like to subscribe to the pertinent newsletter. In fact, I like it so much that I will be superlatively pissed if it turns out Sansa whimsied her way to victory like a novice poker player trying a bluff in her third game and promptly showing her cards to everyone at the end of the round. Her collective traumas should have made her a frankly cynical, calculating bitch by now and it’s time to let her. ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/62 "2016-06-20T10:00:12Z")
As much as the Sansa story makes sense I’m still so annoyed at how stupid Jon was acting. It’s like he deliberately tried to do the dumbest thing at every opportunity. Before the twist I was pretty much on Ramsay’s side. He actually seemed to have an understanding of infantry tactics. Jon, in contrast, was a typical depiction of a Hollywood soldier. All fancy moves and no strategy. IMHO, if he keeps acting this stupid he should have died in this battle. I can’t see Sansa trusting him with her troops in the, hopefully, upcoming war against the Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/63 "2016-06-20T10:09:03Z")
Yeah, Jon was going to charge alone at the Bolton army? WTF was that? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/64 "2016-06-20T10:23:23Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > OH > > MY > > GOD. This was the most epic, awesome GOT episode ever. > > Just the first 15 minutes alone would have fans talking for weeks. > > Without question, that later battle was the best battle scene I’ve ever seen caught on film. I actually started getting queasy during it. The horror of not just getting your guts taken out with a sword, but of being crushed to death under an endlessly increasing pile of bodies scared the shit out of me. > \*\* > Then, finally, the justice we all wanted. \*\* > > Bravo, Game of Thrones, Bravo. > > Forget the Red Wedding. This was 60 minutes of story and cinema at its absolute finest. One of the greatest television episodes in history. I did not want \*that \*justice. I have a good deal of contrarianism in me. I found myself rooting for Ramsey Bolton during the entire battle. I wished that GoT would continue with it’s undermining of the good guys win outcome that is so much of popular culture. I am also going full misogynist too. Im now rooting for every male claimant to the throne over female. Apart from Cersei; _she_ would make a fine queen given another opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/65 "2016-06-20T10:30:45Z")
Well that was fucking fantastic, more than made up for last weeks shittery. Figured Wun Wun was doomed for the same reason the direwolves have been dying; CGI budget. Guess it also put paid to any Northern Conspiracy talk, fuck the Umbers. Was totally expected Tormund to bite it too, which he did but not in the way I expected. Battle was a \*little \*predictable what with the ‘Rohan moment’ of the Knights of the Vale appearing in the nick of time, but who cares, I was still cheering. Most importantly that villain Sue untouchable son of a bitch is now dog food. Jon beating the shit out of him was one of the most cathartic TV moments I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/66 "2016-06-20T10:42:29Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > It wasn’t clear to me how Dany got ships. She only burned the one? Lots about that scene that didn’t add up, even beyond her sudden acquisition of telepathic control over the two dragons who were uncontrollable last season. She was well within the range of arrows, let alone catapults, while burning the ship, but nobody attacked her, even though at least some of them might have inferred that they could be next – she hadn’t asked for surrender yet. And why did the other two dragons stay cooped up in the dungeon all this time, even during Dany’s extended absence, if they could have broken out whenever they wanted? But who cares, it was a visually stunning scene, certainly the best scene since she bought the Unsullied, and maybe the best scene of the whole show. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/67 "2016-06-20T11:14:50Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > But she kept saying they didn’t have enough men, and when he said they’re all we have, she just stood there. Wouldn’t that have been a good time to tell him to wait, more men are on their way? > > If they had been even 10 minutes later, it would have been too late. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > If she was using Jon as bait, then why was she pleading with him not to fight, and why was she warning him that Ramsey was the one who set the traps? Jon did exactly what she begged him not to do. Was she using reverse psychology or something? > > And how was she timing Littlefinger’s arrival to the second without anyone else knowing about it? How did she even know her raven got through? > [@Bone](#): > > I think the Sansa strategy analysis is interesting but wrong. It’s Ramsay\* and I agree - there is 0% chance that this was anything other than a standard Hollywood “cavalry shows up at the last minute and saves the day” moment. Sansa was not hatching this brilliant scheme that relies on a long string of minute details going exactly according to plan and waiting in the wings until just the right moment with a giant army behind her hidden barely out of sight of everyone else. This is exactly the same as all the tinfoil theories about Arya - imagining there’s something much more intricate going on behind the scenes than there actually is. It was trying to pay some kind of silly lip service to feminism but failed miserably when they’re sitting in the war room and Sansa throws a little tantrum with “I lived with Ramsay, don’t you think _I_ have some insight?” then Jon asks, “OK, so what do we do?” And her response is “I don’t know, I don’t know anything about battles! But don’t do what he wants you to do.” Of course, the fact that he (stupidly) did do what Ramsay wanted still doesn’t mean she was planning on that all along and masterfully orchestrated everything to happen the way it did. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/68 "2016-06-20T11:18:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I just wish they’d kept Ramsay alive for a while and given him the Theon treatment. > > I wonder if Bran would be able to father children. If not, the Stark surname dies when he does. (Well, Benjen, but he took a vow.) Unless Jon is legitimized. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/69 "2016-06-20T11:54:43Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > No, what’s weird is apparently that Wildlings even have surnames. Mance Rayder had a family name because he was a southerner. I’m guessing Tormund’s surname is literally just a surname and not a family name. Like Richard the Lionheart. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/70 "2016-06-20T12:02:20Z")
> [@Yersenia\_Pestis](#): > > Crazy prediction: rickon comes back as a white walker (assuming that they overrun wall and, eventually, winter fell) The dead don’t come back as white walkers, they come back as wights/zombies. We’ve seen how white walkers are made, at least twice. White walkers =/= wights. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/71 "2016-06-20T12:12:51Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I wished that GoT would continue with it’s undermining of the good guys win outcome that is so much of popular culture. Not me. I think that a constant parade of “the good guys lose” eventually becomes just as predictable and therefore dull as its opposite. The one moment in the episode that I did find annoyingly cliché was actually the capture of Ramsay. He’s surrounded by archers, shooting arrows at the commander of those archers, at the end of a pitched violent battle… but no one took a shot at him. I guess so Jon could fight him one on one? But that was dumb and for me, not remotely believable. The realistic outcome - and the one that would have fit better with the style of _Game of Thrones_ - was that Ramsay immediately becomes a pincushion. No dramatic cathartic vengeance for Sansa, no villainous speechifying, just another corpse on a battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/72 "2016-06-20T12:16:15Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > So the “cavalry arrives in the nick of time” cliché doesn’t apply here. It arrived exactly when Sansa and Littlefinger meant it to. If they had arrived earlier and word had gotten out, Ramsay would just turtle up in Winterfell. They had to make sure he completely committed to the slaughter. And that meant that there had to _be_ a slaughter. > > Just as Sansa was willing to write off the life of Rickon in order to take back Winterfell, she was also willing to write off the life of Jon Snow in order to lure Ramsay’s army out of Winterfell so the Knights of the Vale could destroy them. I have to admit, this makes some sense. My explanation for why she never told Jon about Littlefinger was that she was hoping to not have to use his army because she hates him and only decided after her last conversation with Jon but this makes some sense…I don’t think Sansa is as cold as you are implying but I think she could be that pragmatic. Other thoughts: Sometimes the show is smarter than me…I wondered why the dragons weren’t going to town on all those ships when Tyrion explained: now they’re our ships. I was like :smack: I just took it for granted Davos knows what happened to Shireen. Half of Stannis’ army left him because of that and people talk. I thought, how could he not know? But people discussing the show seem to think he still doesn’t know. Does he know? RIP Wun Wun. ☹ Enjoyed the Dany, Yara scene. Here’s to Girl Power. Here’s a question I meant to ask in a previous episode: before we saw her with the Whore in the last episode, did we know Yara was into ladies? Tyrion does have a point though: what if each of the Seven Kingdoms decides they also want their freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/73 "2016-06-20T12:21:13Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > The dead don’t come back as white walkers, they come back as wights/zombies. We’ve seen how white walkers are made, at least twice. White walkers =/= wights. Just wights. Wights != zombies. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/74 "2016-06-20T12:29:48Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I have to admit, this makes some sense. My explanation for why she never told Jon about Littlefinger was that she was hoping to not have to use his army because she hates him and only decided after her last conversation with Jon but this makes some sense…I don’t think Sansa is as cold as you are implying but I think she could be that pragmatic. > > Other thoughts: > > Sometimes the show is smarter than me…I wondered why the dragons weren’t going to town on all those ships when Tyrion explained: now they’re our ships. I was like :smack: > > I just took it for granted Davos knows what happened to Shireen. Half of Stannis’ army left him because of that and people talk. I thought, how could he not know? But people discussing the show seem to think he still doesn’t know. Does he know? > > RIP Wun Wun. ☹ > > Enjoyed the Dany, Yara scene. Here’s to Girl Power. Here’s a question I meant to ask in a previous episode: before we saw her with the Whore in the last episode, did we know Yara was into ladies? No, we didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/75 "2016-06-20T12:41:03Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > But she kept saying they didn’t have enough men, and when he said they’re all we have, she just stood there. Wouldn’t that have been a good time to tell him to wait, more men are on their way? > > If they had been even 10 minutes later, it would have been too late. If they had waited on the Knights of the Vale, would there have been enough men? To either face off on the battlefield or to attack Winterfell in a siege? I’m sure odds would have been better, but I didn’t have the impression that the Vale would make up the numbers. > [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > As much as the Sansa story makes sense I’m still so annoyed at how stupid Jon was acting. It’s like he deliberately tried to do the dumbest thing at every opportunity. Before the twist I was pretty much on Ramsay’s side. He actually seemed to have an understanding of infantry tactics. Jon, in contrast, was a typical depiction of a Hollywood soldier. All fancy moves and no strategy. IMHO, if he keeps acting this stupid he should have died in this battle. I can’t see Sansa trusting him with her troops in the, hopefully, upcoming war against the Lannisters. Yeah, I was confused by that. I would have expected him to start riding towards Ramsay in anger but then double back. And during the battle I kept thinking that they’d have some plan they’d implement, but Ramsay was the only one with the plan until the Knights of the Vale came in. Jon’s behavior made more sense for someone who had either never been in a battle before or who was overconfident about how good his troops were, but neither of those things was true here. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > Lots about that scene that didn’t add up, even beyond her sudden acquisition of telepathic control over the two dragons who were uncontrollable last season. She was well within the range of arrows, let alone catapults, while burning the ship, but nobody attacked her, even though at least some of them might have inferred that they could be next – she hadn’t asked for surrender yet. And why did the other two dragons stay cooped up in the dungeon all this time, even during Dany’s extended absence, if they could have broken out whenever they wanted? > > But who cares, it was a visually stunning scene, certainly the best scene since she bought the Unsullied, and maybe the best scene of the whole show. I had wondered about the other dragons, why they were apparently in the dungeon. Maybe they go back there to sleep or something, but I don’t know why they wouldn’t come out until Drogon flew over. But I agree, it was a well done and satisfying scene, so that doesn’t bother me too much. > [@Rigamarole](#): > > It was trying to pay some kind of silly lip service to feminism but failed miserably when they’re sitting in the war room and Sansa throws a little tantrum with “I lived with Ramsay, don’t you think _I_ have some insight?” then Jon asks, “OK, so what do we do?” And her response is “I don’t know, I don’t know anything about battles! But don’t do what he wants you to do.” Of course, the fact that he (stupidly) did do what Ramsay wanted still doesn’t mean she was planning on that all along and masterfully orchestrated everything to happen the way it did. I know little about battle strategy, but I’m guessing if Jon had listened to Sansa and had some clever battle strategy, it would have extended the battle and not resulted in as many losses so soon for Jon’s side, but they likely still would have been losing until the Vale came in. And it made sense for Sansa to give the advice she did, it would have been way out of character if she came up with some brilliant battle strategy, but she could tell enough that the plan was an expected one. If you don’t think that Sansa was planning things the way she did, do you think she didn’t know that the Knights of the Vale were coming? Or she knew but just didn’t tell Jon out of petulance? Or that she knew and didn’t say anything only because of the script? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/76 "2016-06-20T12:54:02Z")
One question. Jon Snow said he was going to bury Rickon next to their father. But Ned was beheaded at King’s Landing and his head put on a pike. Would Joffrey or Tommen have allowed the body to be returned to his family? ---
**Author:** ![TPWombat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbce88/32.png) [@TPWombat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TPWombat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/77 "2016-06-20T12:57:20Z")
Liked that Ramsay echoed Stannis’ “Prepare for a siege” followed by instant realisation that there wasn’t going to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/78 "2016-06-20T13:08:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > One question. Jon Snow said he was going to bury Rickon next to their father. But Ned was beheaded at King’s Landing and his head put on a pike. Would Joffrey or Tommen have allowed the body to be returned to his family? It was a long time ago but I am pretty sure there was a line (maybe from Tyrion) saying they did indeed send his body home in deference to Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/79 "2016-06-20T13:09:31Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > One question. Jon Snow said he was going to bury Rickon next to their father. But Ned was beheaded at King’s Landing and his head put on a pike. Would Joffrey or Tommen have allowed the body to be returned to his family? Early in Season 2 Littlefinger brings Ned’s mortal remains to Cat as a ‘gift’ as part of an rather poorly timed attempt to woo her, he mentions it was a gesture made by Tyrion. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/80 "2016-06-20T13:11:23Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > \*“Tormund Giantsbane” according to IMDb, which is a weird name for the best friend of the last giant, but whatever. Before Mance Rayder united the Freefolk, the Wildlings were just a bunch of squabbling and warring tribes. And the giants were just another Wildling clan. I could see Tormund becoming known as a brave giant killer before being allied with them, and becoming friends with one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=5)