# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/81 "2016-06-20T13:21:02Z")
I’m hoping Tormund receives the Karstark lands and titles. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/82 "2016-06-20T13:23:11Z")
Whatever happened to the Karstark lord anyways? he was there in every scene with Ramsay and the Umber lord but he was not shown at all during the battle. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/83 "2016-06-20T13:24:10Z")
Truly not saying this just to be contrarian, but for me the Winterfell battle scene went on too long. Yes, impressive, but then it got oppressive as the slaughter by Ramsay’s forces went on and on and on. I’d already gotten the point: Snow’s forces were losing, doomed. I think that ‘movement’ of the battle should have been shorter. Maybe they could have freed up a couple more minutes to touch on other story threads first. Also, about the dragons: they showed the other two breaking out with debris of shattering of sandstone (whatever) so they were clearly not going in and out at will before that. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/84 "2016-06-20T13:34:40Z")
Sansa clearly used Jon and his army as bait to draw Ramsey’s army and diminish their numbers. She seemed surprised when Jon was still alive. She had set up the Vail army to come and support them several episodes ago. Sansa needed Jon to believe that attacking the way he did was the best way. So that Ramsey would sacrifice so many of his own men. It would be easy pickings for the Vale army to finish them off, even without the remnant of the wildling army. Also interesting that we are headed to a battle for the seven kingdoms among primarily women. Sansa - Queen of the North Yara - Queen of the Iron Islands Danerias - Mother of dragons Ellaria - mother of the sand snakes in Dorne Marjorie or Cersei - will likely overthrow Thomen for Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/85 "2016-06-20T13:42:46Z")
Those over at r/dreadfort are going to be pissed today. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/86 "2016-06-20T13:46:01Z")
I really wish this had gone another way. I wanted the battle to be won by a sudden rise of Stark loyalists, not Littlefinger. We’ve planted the seeds with this idea with The North Remembers, and people talking about how Northerners are more loyal and honorable than others. And that the North hates the Boltons. So I really wanted to see that either some of the northern armies who came to fight for Ramsay turn on him, or perhaps the arrival of one of the other northern armies that they sent ravens to (Sansa had mentioned the Cerwyns and Manderlies by name) Over and over we’ve been having the Starks (justifiably) die because they were the honorable and decent people in a den of snakes. We’ve spent seasons rooting for the Starks only to be handed loss after loss. But now we have all the setup we need for the Starks to have a totally earned victory. For the honor and decency and loyalty of the North to make them strong for once, and not weak - victorious and not tragic. To create a fist-pumping, glorious, earned Stark/North victory. Instead we got Littlefinger. There was nothing wrong with the way it happened, it’s just that we wasted what could’ve been the most triumphant, cathartic, and earned scene of the series. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/87 "2016-06-20T14:15:47Z")
Ok that was an epic episode. The cinematography, choreography of the battle and the editing were superbly done. BUT… GOT has got predicable. We knew Dany would destroy the slavers fleet with dragons, we knew the knights of the vale would come to the rescue and Ramsay’s death eaten by his own dogs was predictable as well. Rickons death, the only surprising thing about it was that I thought he was going to loose his dogs to run him down rather than playing the archery game. If the series climax is dany killing the white walkers with dragon fire (probably with John Snow and Tyrion on the other two dragons) I’m going to be disappointed. Yeah I’ll still watch it anyway, for the high production values, but I do have to strongly suspect that the show runners are taking easy ways out and short cuts, which they were not doing when they were working from published source material. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/88 "2016-06-20T14:20:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > BTW after the first arrow how dumb do you have to be to keep running in a straight line? Zig zag or something. First of all, most people would probably be too panicked to remember to zig zag. And second, I think that Ramsay was enough of a good shot that he deliberately missed Rickon until he wanted to hit him. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/89 "2016-06-20T14:21:09Z")
Feisty little Lady Mormont doesn’t just send 62 men, she shows up at the battle. I wondered if the dragons under the pyramid could even get back out the little door after Tyrion freed them. They were supposed to starve to death if not allowed to roam, but they are roaming now. Nobody said a word to Grey Worm about going 2-fer on executing Masters. Tyrion sure talked himself out of a bind in a hurry, Dany didn’t even really seemed pissed at him. Walder Frey toasting the Lannisters in the previews. If I were Jaime, I’d go take a leak right about now. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/90 "2016-06-20T14:24:19Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > If she was using Jon as bait, then why was she pleading with him not to fight, and why was she warning him that Ramsey was the one who set the traps? Jon did exactly what she begged him not to do. Was she using reverse psychology or something? > > And how was she timing Littlefinger’s arrival to the second without anyone else knowing about it? How did she even know her raven got through? She may not know war, but she does know Ramsay. Ramsay needed bait to leave winterfell and fight a straight up battle outside, rather than a siege that may take too long. Had Jon waited for the vale knights, it would have changed the odds from 2\>1 to 3\>2 or more to Jon’s side, and Dog boy would have stayed inside. When Ramsay started shooting arrows at Rickon, it was game on, and everything more or less went to plan after that, her plan. Declan ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/91 "2016-06-20T14:25:27Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Lots about that scene that didn’t add up, She only burned a couple ships, the rest surrendered. Remember, these are the slaver’s forces, composed of slaves. When someon famous for freeing slaves has dragons pointed at you, I’d imagine switching sides looks pretty good. Plus, Yara and Theon arrived, with all the Iron Islands ships with them. So now she has two fleets, and fully crewed ones at that. > [@](#): > > even beyond her sudden acquisition of telepathic control over the two dragons who were uncontrollable last season. Well, last season she was unable to ride Drogon, the alpha male. Now she can. When the other dragons saw that, I think they fell in line. > [@](#): > > She was well within the range of arrows, let alone catapults, while burning the ship, but nobody attacked her, even though at least some of them might have inferred that they could be next – she hadn’t asked for surrender yet. See above. Can you even imagine how bad those guys were shitting their pants? > [@](#): > > And why did the other two dragons stay cooped up in the dungeon all this time, even during Dany’s extended absence, if they could have broken out whenever they wanted? Tyrion only recently unchained them, remember? Also, Tyrion told Dany that he had an alternate plan, some of which might have involved freeing the other two dragons in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Yersenia\_Pestis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e495f1/32.png) [@Yersenia\_Pestis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yersenia_Pestis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/92 "2016-06-20T14:30:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I really wish this had gone another way. I wanted the battle to be won by a sudden rise of Stark loyalists, not Littlefinger. We’ve planted the seeds with this idea with The North Remembers, and people talking about how Northerners are more loyal and honorable than others. And that the North hates the Boltons. > > So I really wanted to see that either some of the northern armies who came to fight for Ramsay turn on him, or perhaps the arrival of one of the other northern armies that they sent ravens to (Sansa had mentioned the Cerwyns and Manderlies by name) > > Over and over we’ve been having the Starks (justifiably) die because they were the honorable and decent people in a den of snakes. We’ve spent seasons rooting for the Starks only to be handed loss after loss. > > But now we have all the setup we need for the Starks to have a totally earned victory. For the honor and decency and loyalty of the North to make them strong for once, and not weak - victorious and not tragic. To create a fist-pumping, glorious, earned Stark/North victory. > > Instead we got Littlefinger. > > There was nothing wrong with the way it happened, it’s just that we wasted what could’ve been the most triumphant, cathartic, and earned scene of the series. I totally see what you are saying BUT… I think one of the more interesting things about this show is that we are being proven that yes, the North may be more loyal than other regions but they also BRAG a lot and are, perhaps, only SLIGHTLY better at that… I can see the (majority) other houses of the North now, all of a sudden, coming out for the Starks… as if they were waiting to do the “loyalty/north remembers thing” when it was convenient to them… its all talk and smoke and mirrors in the end… ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/93 "2016-06-20T14:38:41Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > It’s Ramsay\* and I agree - there is 0% chance that this was anything other than a standard Hollywood “cavalry shows up at the last minute and saves the day” moment. Sansa was not hatching this brilliant scheme that relies on a long string of minute details going exactly according to plan and waiting in the wings until just the right moment with a giant army behind her hidden barely out of sight of everyone else. This is exactly the same as all the tinfoil theories about Arya - imagining there’s something much more intricate going on behind the scenes than there actually is. I don’t know. You’re right that this is not the kind of brilliant scheme that Sansa would come up with but it sounds exactly like the kind of scheme Littlefinger would come up with and that’s what really matters. I don’t see it as unrealistic at all. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/94 "2016-06-20T14:41:51Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Nobody said a word to Grey Worm about going 2-fer on executing Masters. I’m sure that was always the plan. Having the two other masters turn on him first is a stroke of genius to keep the surviving one on their side. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/95 "2016-06-20T14:43:39Z")
> [@Yersenia\_Pestis](#): > > I totally see what you are saying BUT… I think one of the more interesting things about this show is that we are being proven that yes, the North may be more loyal than other regions but they also BRAG a lot and are, perhaps, only SLIGHTLY better at that… > > I can see the (majority) other houses of the North now, all of a sudden, coming out for the Starks… as if they were waiting to do the “loyalty/north remembers thing” when it was convenient to them… its all talk and smoke and mirrors in the end… It doesn’t have to be that way, though. There’s good reason the Northerners are different. Life is much harder there than it is anywhere else. Every few years, they have to survive an apocalyptic winter season. That means that they truly have to cooperate, and not backstab and go to war over petty squabbles, or they’re all dead. It makes sense that a culture developed in the North that was uniquely loyal, honorable, and demanded wise leadership. So it would be in character and consistent with the worldbuilding that the northerners are fiercely loyal to the Starks. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/96 "2016-06-20T14:50:06Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I’m sure that was always the plan. Having the two other masters turn on him first is a stroke of genius to keep the surviving one on their side. Ah yes, that makes sense. Plus, the “highborn” dudes totally outed themselves in the process. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/97 "2016-06-20T14:59:53Z")
When it’s epic … it’s really epic. Yara always gets the best lines, and it turns out she’s got a tidy arse: Danny: “And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands?” Yara: “I never demand but I’m up for anything really” ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/98 "2016-06-20T15:03:13Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > RIP Wun Wun. ☹ I was more upset by Wun Wun dying then I was by Rickon. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/99 "2016-06-20T15:07:00Z")
I think the part where the Boltons surrounded the wildling army was meant to evoke [the battle of Cannae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae) where Hannibal surrounded a Roman army in much the same manner and essentially just kept inching at them from all sides until 70,000 Romans were trapped in a ball so tight they couldn’t raise their hands to swing their weapons and many of them suffocated or were trampled to death. Since the scale of this battle was so much larger, it went on all day. People were waiting in the crushing pile of humanity for hours for their death to come. Some even literally dug a hole and buried their head in the dirt to kill themselves because there was a little more space to work with at ground level and they couldn’t manuever their weapons to do it. Horrific stuff. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/100 "2016-06-20T15:07:12Z")
Rickon has always been more of a prop than a real character. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=6)