# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/121 "2016-06-20T16:29:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The main screw-up was allowing Ramsay to get back into Winterfell in the first place. They perhaps should have had a squad positioned and ready to head off his retreat. > > Even having Ramsay bottled up in Winterfell wouldn’t have been a defeat. And Jon and Sansa, like Theon, may know ways into Winterfell that the Boltons wouldn’t be aware of. Yes all of this is possible I just don’t think it’s likely. Much like the overcomlicated Arya theories, I think the Sansa as a master schemer is unfounded. They could have easily easily written this slightly differently to eliminate this problem. If in the warroom, Sansa could have confessed she wrote the letter. Jon would be pissed, and she would say that she didn’t tell him because she didn’t know if he got it, agreed, or would even make it there in time. Then Jon would say they have to marshall on without knowing. Nothing else needed to be changed and that would work. Characters not talking to each other is a dumb plot point. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/122 "2016-06-20T16:33:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The main screw-up was allowing Ramsay to get back into Winterfell in the first place. They perhaps should have had a squad positioned and ready to head off his retreat. This part I agree with, and it was on the writers. They basically needed an honorable death for Wun Wun and a beat down of Ramsay by Jon that leads to his inevitable ending as dog food as catharsis for the rest of us. I will forgive that particular nit along with a couple others this episode. It was fantastic writing/filming/directing/acting throughout. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/123 "2016-06-20T16:39:18Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > (…) The actual filming of the battle was fantastic, but I couldn’t help but be taken out of it by Jon’s aggressively poor decisions. He screwed up so badly that it made the cavalry their only hope. Agreed. The battle was filmed very well, but for a second time in a row we see outrageous stupidity survive against essentially deserved but ultimately wrong confidence. I would have at least expected to see some preparation on John’s side against the expected cavalry attack: rows of chevaux de frise, spikes on the ground, long wodden stakes carried by infantry to either keep the horses away or kill them, burning wheels etc. Also, they should have had shields against the bowmen. And I was hoping to see one of those gigantic bows the giants had when they attacked the wall. Wun Wun could have at least tried to take out Ramsay unexpectedly from afar and cause some confusion among the ranks that were not used to be fired upon from such a distance. Something, anything that showed some kind of preparedness and awareness of the situation. It would have been fitting if John had paid the price for his stupidity and Sansa had lost him due to her scheming. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/124 "2016-06-20T16:40:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Both battles were shot really well. The clash of cavalry has to be one of the best done battle scenes ever. The shield wall was also done really well. It was nice to see at least some infantry tactics. It suffered from a few cliches but the battle of the bastards was done really well. > > …Jon seems to have acquired plot armor and remains free of serious consequences for his poor decisions. Agreed as to the battle scenes, and as to Jon’s plot armor. Out there alone on the battlefield at the outset, he should’ve had as many arrows in him as Wun Wun did by the end. > [@EllisDee](#): > > … The thought of Sansa and Littlefinger watching the slaughter much as we were, waiting for Ramsay to fully commit his infantry, is hardcore. Less so for Littlefinger, who has to face fewer combatants the longer he waits, but for Sansa, who loses more friends the longer she waits. That girl has ice in her veins. Well put. > [@Tangent](#): > > …By the way, I know we jokingly refer to Jon’s ‘plot armor’ frequently, but during the battle I really did start to get the impression that there is some kind of supernatural protection or ‘luck’ surrounding Jon… it felt like this went beyond skill and he had an aura of destiny about him. Maybe Melisandre is right about the Lord of Light’s desire for Jon to stay alive… Hmm. Could be. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > …Just the first 15 minutes alone would have fans talking for weeks… Heh. “You seem to have misunderstood who is going to be surrendering today”… as we see the approaching dragon, out of focus, in the background. Love it! > [@Shakester](#): > > It _is_ a cliché, that’s true. But the specific thing that it reminded me of, and I have no doubt was the inspiration, was [von Blücher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebhard_Leberecht_von_Bl%C3%BCcher)’s late arrival on the battlefield at Waterloo. Just goes to show, sometimes the Prussians really do ride in to save the day at the crucial moment. Consider also A.P. Hill’s timely arrival during the Battle of Antietam, and Strong Vincent’s and Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain’s in-the-nick-of-time ascent of Little Round Top during the Battle of Gettysburg. > [@Critical1](#): > > …I think my favorite bit was Jon getting crushed in the **mosh pit of death** and managing to struggle his way out… Band name! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/125 "2016-06-20T16:40:49Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Is everyone forgetting about Bran (easily done), but he is next in line for the Warden of the North. No one has seen or heard anything of Bran since Sam and Gilly saw him when he went North of the Wall with his companions several years ago. I don’t think anyone is thinking that he is still alive. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/126 "2016-06-20T16:42:09Z")
Jon is a Stark (rash, impulsive, stupid moves) and a Targaryen (always lucking out and having things go your way). There, battle explained. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/127 "2016-06-20T16:43:32Z")
Like **SenorBeef** , I was a bit disappointed in how Ramsay was defeated. One of the main themes of the show has been that the flaws of a leader will ultimately do them in – Tywin, for example, was mostly a very effective leader, but he was a total bastard to his son Tyrion, and that had fatal consequences. If Tywin had just been decent to Tyrion, then he would still be ruling today (he never would have fallen for the High Sparrow’s shit). Ramsay is a much, much more flawed leader than Tywin. And while he’s arrogant and overconfident (and this overconfidence might have been part of why he lost this battle), his greatest flaw by far was his incredible and disgusting cruelty and sadism. That really should have consequences – sure, his men would fear him, but they’d also be thinking that being around Ramsay in the long term is a good way to die screaming, and that surely there must be a better person out there to serve under. Far more lords should have jumped at the chance to switch from Ramsay to the first person (Jon and Sansa) that comes around with a solid claim on the North, in my opinion. Karstark and Umber (or one of them, at least) should have been seriously considering turning cloak during the battle, especially when Ramsay starts shooting arrows at his own men. To sum up, big flaws should have big consequences, and Ramsay’s random sadism and cruelty never did. That should have been a big part of his downfall. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/128 "2016-06-20T16:50:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No one has seen or heard anything of Bran since Sam and Gilly saw him when he went North of the Wall with his companions several years ago. I don’t think anyone is thinking that he is still alive. We know he’s still alive. I was referring to all the fandom of Sansa, Wardeness of the North. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/129 "2016-06-20T16:51:50Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Poor little guy had to die for the sake of drama. The “little guy” was bigger than Ramsay even when obviously hunched over. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/130 "2016-06-20T16:57:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Like **SenorBeef** , I was a bit disappointed in how Ramsay was defeated. One of the main themes of the show has been that the flaws of a leader will ultimately do them in – Tywin, for example, was mostly a very effective leader, but he was a total bastard to his son Tyrion, and that had fatal consequences. If Tywin had just been decent to Tyrion, then he would still be ruling today (he never would have fallen for the High Sparrow’s shit). > > Ramsay is a much, much more flawed leader than Tywin. And while he’s arrogant and overconfident (and this overconfidence might have been part of why he lost this battle), his greatest flaw by far was his incredible and disgusting cruelty and sadism. That really should have consequences – sure, his men would fear him, but they’d also be thinking that being around Ramsay in the long term is a good way to die screaming, and that surely there must be a better person out there to serve under. Far more lords should have jumped at the chance to switch from Ramsay to the first person (Jon and Sansa) that comes around with a solid claim on the North, in my opinion. Karstark and Umber (or one of them, at least) should have been seriously considering turning cloak during the battle, especially when Ramsay starts shooting arrows at his own men. To sum up, big flaws should have big consequences, and Ramsay’s random sadism and cruelty never did. That should have been a big part of his downfall. Well, Ramsay’s cruelty in starving his hounds did come back to bite him. Sure, he’d probably have had an unpleasant death no matter what, but he went out of his way to be cruel with the hounds, and he paid for it. It’s kind of a metaphor for his whole leadership policy. Of course, I’d have preferred to see his men lay down arms and let him be taken because he didn’t inspire loyalty. I wish Sansa had told Ramsay that if he was remembered at all, it would be as the unworthy bastard that ruined House Bolton. That legitimizing Ramsay would be remembered as the worst mistake Roose ever made. I like to think that would have bothered Ramsay, but knowing him, it may have given him a perverse satisfaction that he destroyed something so important. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/131 "2016-06-20T16:59:39Z")
Well, his cruelty probably had an awful lot to do with why so many northern houses stayed out of the battle altogether. Ramsay only had a few of them in his pocket. They provided more soldiers than Sansa and Jon were able to muster, but if Ramsay had actually inspired real loyalty he would have been able to have a force powerful enough that attacking Winterfell wouldn’t even be in question. Many lords in the north didn’t want to pledge allegiance to a bastard or a woman (especially when there was such a slim chance of their victory), but they didn’t want to help out a psychopath either. They just wanted to keep their heads down and stay out of it as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/132 "2016-06-20T17:01:14Z")
So at this point I don’t see how anyone can pose a credible threat to Dany. Not even the White Walkers and their undead army seem like they would have any hope of standing up to her army or dragons. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/133 "2016-06-20T17:02:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Like **SenorBeef** (…) To sum up, big flaws should have big consequences, and Ramsay’s random sadism and cruelty never did. That should have been a big part of his downfall. Absolutely. And this was shown to be true even for - comparatively - little flaws in the past: Robb committed very few mistakes but the ones he made were a) totally in character, yet b) exploitable, and c) given his precarious situation crucial. BTW, Sansa’s final words to Ramsay might hint at a northern version of The Rains of Castamere. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/134 "2016-06-20T17:03:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Like **SenorBeef** , I was a bit disappointed in how Ramsay was defeated. One of the main themes of the show has been that the flaws of a leader will ultimately do them in – Tywin, for example, was mostly a very effective leader, but he was a total bastard to his son Tyrion, and that had fatal consequences. If Tywin had just been decent to Tyrion, then he would still be ruling today (he never would have fallen for the High Sparrow’s shit). And if Ramsay didn’t rape the shit out of Sansa, he’d still be Warden of the North. He’d just be her creepy, ill-tempered husband. Happy wife, happy life and all that. Worst case scenario, Rikon comes back as Lord of Winterfell, but Ramsay would still rule the North if I understand Westeros law correctly. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ramsay is a much, much more flawed leader than Tywin. And while he’s arrogant and overconfident (and this overconfidence might have been part of why he lost this battle), his greatest flaw by far was his incredible and disgusting cruelty and sadism. That really should have consequences – sure, his men would fear him, but they’d also be thinking that being around Ramsay in the long term is a good way to die screaming, and that surely there must be a better person out there to serve under. Far more lords should have jumped at the chance to switch from Ramsay to the first person (Jon and Sansa) that comes around with a solid claim on the North, in my opinion. Karstark and Umber (or one of them, at least) should have been seriously considering turning cloak during the battle, especially when Ramsay starts shooting arrows at his own men. To sum up, big flaws should have big consequences, and Ramsay’s random sadism and cruelty never did. That should have been a big part of his downfall. The problem is that the lords would abandon Ramsay if Jon was a shoe-in for betting him. Classic Prisoners Dilemma. Every everyone turned to Jon, Ramsay has no chance. But no one wants to be the first lord to try to switch sides and end up burning on an upside down X. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The other thing that bugged me was that suddenly the slavers were so helpless against dragons. They’d proven in the arena with the sons of the harpies that dragons are vulnerable to spears. So did they just not have a plan for when their fleet of ships got attacked by dragons, as seemed inevitable? > > Or did they attack based on the (true until just this episode) assumption that Dany was not in Mereen? Or did the dragons get way bigger and stronger very quickly and are now basically invulnerable? Adolescent dragons that have never seen combat and are trying to protect their momma at ground level in a crowded arena are vulnerable to spears. A full grown dragon strafing ships with fire from hundreds of feet in the air is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/135 "2016-06-20T17:12:04Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > So at this point I don’t see how anyone can pose a credible threat to Dany. Not even the White Walkers and their undead army seem like they would have any hope of standing up to her army or dragons. IIRC, Dany asked Tyrion if they had enough ships now to take Westeros, and he said with the Greyjoy and Masters’ ships, they just about have enough, but it didn’t sound like overwhelming numbers. It sounds like they think they have enough to put on a good fight now, but not to easily take over. But maybe they aren’t aware of the turmoil in Kings Landing, which would maybe make it easier to take over. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/136 "2016-06-20T17:19:52Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Balish “I will do anything in my power to make things right for you” (paraphrasing) > This was at the meeting with him and Sansa… I think that “Remember, the Bolton’s attacked up and kidnapped you. There was nothing that I could have done to prevent it.” was also part of that conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/137 "2016-06-20T17:21:01Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Jon is a Stark (rash, impulsive, stupid moves) and a Targaryen (always lucking out and having things go your way). There, battle explained. You mean like when King Aerys II got the pointy end of Jaime’s sword? Or when Rhaegar got a face full of Robert Baratheon’s warhammer? Or when Viserys got his golden crown? I wouldn’t say Targaryans are all _that_ lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/138 "2016-06-20T17:21:15Z")
Do we know what, if anything, that Dany knows of the White Walkers? For that matter, who else other than Jon Snow’s allies know about the WW? ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/139 "2016-06-20T17:21:26Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Well, his cruelty probably had an awful lot to do with why so many northern houses stayed out of the battle altogether. Ramsay only had a few of them in his pocket. They provided more soldiers than Sansa and Jon were able to muster, but if Ramsay had actually inspired real loyalty he would have been able to have a force powerful enough that attacking Winterfell wouldn’t even be in question. True enough. But it wasn’t his cruelty that caused his downfall - it might not even have been a factor at all since Littlefinger wanted to get rid of the Bolton’s in any event. And Littlefinger had the largest force at his disposal that still existed in the Seven Kingdoms. Littlefinger would have needed another plan, a more sophisticated one maybe, if Ramsay had the loyalty of more Houses but given Littlefinger’s track record, he was toast. Of course, the army of the Vale should have never been able to stay hidden in the north for such a long time in the first place. You simply cannot hide thousands of men who need to stay somewhere, be supplied constantly and traverse inhabited areas. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/140 "2016-06-20T17:29:59Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > I think that “Remember, the Bolton’s attacked up and kidnapped you. There was nothing that I could have done to prevent it.” was also part of that conversation. You are thinking of a different conversation. Sansa wasn’t ever kidnapped, Balish used that as his excuse when confronted about her being married off to the Boltons by one of the lords of the Vale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=8)