# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/141 "2016-06-20T17:30:03Z")
He said they were camped outside Moat Cailin. I think that’s held by the Reeds, who are probably diehard Stark supporters, although it would be nice if they mentioned that. Maybe they were held there in secret before they marched at speed all the way up there. But yeah, if that’s the case it wasn’t set up at all. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/142 "2016-06-20T17:34:44Z")
The more I think of it, the more I think the reversal of fortune for the three slave masters was one of the best moments of the entire series, as they go from smugly laying out surrender terms to realizing just how utterly screwed they are - and then try to throw one of their trio under the bus as “lowborn.” Love it! Davos is not going to be happy when he finds out from the Red Priestess exactly what happened to his BFF the little princess. > [@Gukumatz](#): > > I expect the rest took a look around, realized they were wearing metal armor on wooden ships (filled with barrels of highly flammable pitch) and facing opponents that were essentially airborne flamethrowers. > > They took the hint… For slavers, they have _some_ brains, at least. > [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > … Im now rooting for every male claimant to the throne over female. Apart from Cersei; _she_ would make a fine queen given another opportunity. Yeah, she’s certainly shown a masterful grasp of Westerosi politics up to now! Or not. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > …I think that Ramsay was enough of a good shot that he deliberately missed Rickon until he wanted to hit him. Yes. I loved his little offhand shrug when his first arrow “missed” and he reached for another one. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > …Figured Wun Wun was doomed for the same reason the direwolves have been dying; CGI budget. > > … Jon beating the shit out of [Ramsay] was one of the most cathartic TV moments I’ve seen. I thought Wun Wun would’ve been a lot more effective in knocking holes in the Bolton shield wall than he was. But still, I’m sorry to see him go. Agreed as to Jon pounding Ramsay. But was Ramsay enjoying it just a little…? > [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Feisty little Lady Mormont doesn’t just send 62 men, she shows up at the battle… I saw her on horseback in the background during the parley the day before the battle, but not at the battle itself. > [@JSexton](#): > > …Well, last season she was unable to ride Drogon, the alpha male. Now she can. When the other dragons saw that, I think they fell in line… That’s what I thought, too. The two other dragons are smaller and I think responded to Drogon’s call. All three seem quite responsive to Dany’s will now. Awesome to see them crisping the warship, too. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/143 "2016-06-20T17:45:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > He said they were camped outside Moat Cailin. (…) Maybe they were held there in secret before they marched at speed all the way up there. But yeah, if that’s the case it wasn’t set up at all. But they had to ride hundreds of miles to reach Moat Cailin and then ride hundreds of miles going north, all the while traversing territories occupied by Houses who see a “foreign” army going by. Are we to believe that no one send one single raven to Winterfell? No one? It’s not a big deal, compared to other … peculiarities - but it’s not what I’d call plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/144 "2016-06-20T17:48:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The biggest hole in the ‘Sansa is a master schemer’ refrain is that it depended on Wun-Wun living, and being able to charge at Winterfell at just the opportune moment to take out the door before they were prepared for a siege. If Wun-Wun was killed or somehow the door wasn’t able to be breached then the entire thing fails. > [@Colibri](#): > > The main screw-up was allowing Ramsay to get back into Winterfell in the first place. They perhaps should have had a squad positioned and ready to head off his retreat. I just watched “Inside the Episode” for this one. In it the showrunners reveal: The final confrontation between Jon and Ramsay was originally supposed to take part on the battlefield. They changed it to be inside Winterfell purely for dramatic reasons, so that Jon would be battling for his home directly. So if this was bad planning, it was the fault of the writers rather than Sansa. > [@wintertime](#): > > Of course, the army of the Vale should have never been able to stay hidden in the north for such a long time in the first place. You simply cannot hide thousands of men who need to stay somewhere, be supplied constantly and traverse inhabited areas. It’s been consistent that large armies have been able to take opposing forces by complete surprise (and often surprising even their own allies) even though their approach would almost certainly have been detected in the real world: Tywin and Loras at the Blackwater, Stannis at the Battle of Castle Black, the Wildlings against the mutineers at Castle Black, the Slaver’s fleet at Mereen. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/145 "2016-06-20T17:48:57Z")
The Freys didn’t know an 8,000 man Lannister army was right on top of them. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/146 "2016-06-20T17:51:51Z")
Has any witch ever been more useless as an ally than Melisandre? (Well, she can raise you from the dead I suppose, but she gets more people killed than she resurrects, plus she abandoned that smoke demon baby at birth.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/147 "2016-06-20T17:53:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Agreed as to Jon pounding Ramsay. But was Ramsay enjoying it just a little…? I’m pretty sure Ramsay smiled a little at the end of the beating. > [@](#): > > I saw her on horseback in the background during the parley the day before the battle, but not at the battle itself. She was at the parley but wasn’t shown to be present at the battle. I doubt she could have survived the scrum if she had been there. She and Melisandre probably remained back at camp. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/148 "2016-06-20T17:53:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I just watched “Inside the Episode” for this one. In it the showrunners reveal: > > The final confrontation between Jon and Ramsay was originally supposed to take part on the battlefield. They changed it to be inside Winterfell purely for dramatic reasons, so that Jon would be battling for his home directly. So if this was bad planning, it was the fault of the writers rather than Sansa. I haven’t seen that one yet but I will watch it. And that is lame then. Very lame. Sansa has been going on a nice arc of growth and redemption but this storyline where she withholds information is just breaking all of that down. A convo between her and Brienne could have seeded this easily - her saying that she is hiding it because she needs it to be a surprise to Ramsay and Jon would utilize it in his plans, needs to draw out Ramsay, etc. That would have been fine then nothing else needs to change. As it is her hiding information makes her character less likeable. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/149 "2016-06-20T17:56:10Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > The Freys didn’t know an 8,000 man Lannister army was right on top of them. The Freys are such idiots that that can almost be forgiven. Jaime even remarks on what fuckups they are. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/150 "2016-06-20T17:58:39Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Is everyone forgetting about Bran (easily done), but he is next in line for the Warden of the North. No he is not, he is if anything, the last blood Stark. Winterfell is his to claim, but the warden of the North is appointed by whomever the king is in Kings landing. Nominally a Stark, but because of the revolution, it was appointed to Roose Bolton. Declan ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/151 "2016-06-20T18:00:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s been consistent that large armies have been able to take opposing forces by complete surprise (and often surprising even their own allies) even though their approach would almost certainly have been detected in the real world: Tywin and Loras at the Blackwater, Stannis at the Battle of Castle Black, the Wildlings against the mutineers at Castle Black, the Slaver’s fleet at Mereen. Yeah, it’s consistent and that’s one of the reasons why I don’t mind it much. Though I’d argue that the army of the Vale and the Slaver’s fleet differ from the other examples insofar as they had to stay relatively in the open for quite some time while the opponent was not totally preoccupied with the defence against an ongoing attack. But you’re right: they are consistently implausible, so it’s acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/152 "2016-06-20T18:07:23Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > No he is not, he is if anything, the last blood Stark. Winterfell is his to claim, but the warden of the North is appointed by whomever the king is in Kings landing. Nominally a Stark, but because of the revolution, it was appointed to Roose Bolton. > > Declan You are correct. I meant to say Lord of Winterfell. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/153 "2016-06-20T18:09:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It may be a good idea to do something Ramsay didn’t expect. It’s not great when all your forces are doing something the leader doesn’t expect. Look at it from her point of view, there is a 99 percent chance or higher that Rickon is dead, or will be and a greater than 50 percent chance that Jon will be dead in battle. She meant to get winterfell back and she was prepared to expend who she needed to. She is not a master strategist, or a good tactician, other wise Jon may have been able to use the Vale troops, and minimize his own had he known. But like the show says, she knows Ramsay. The way the battle went down, I think I counted about twenty times that Jon would have died, had not fate intervened. I would have to wait until we next see our heroes, before we find out if the Vale troops showing up at that time, was a fluke or did she have that timed. Declan ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/154 "2016-06-20T18:10:15Z")
Something I haven’t seen remarked on yet, Tyrion brought up the Wildfire under King’s Landing again. That definitely seemed to be more of a reminder for the viewers than a message for Dany. Lends credence to the theory that Cersei’s plan involves it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/155 "2016-06-20T18:12:25Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > No he is not, he is if anything, the last blood Stark. Winterfell is his to claim, but the warden of the North is appointed by whomever the king is in Kings landing. Nominally a Stark, but because of the revolution, it was appointed to Roose Bolton. Right. Warden is an appointed title, not a hereditary one (although in practice it usually goes to the same house). Sansa may claim the title of Wardeness of the North, but it wouldn’t be official without Tommen’s agreement (which won’t happen). ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/156 "2016-06-20T18:16:54Z")
So any reason why they didn’t give the giant a club or a big shield? Even half a tree? Seems he could do a lot with any of the above. Fun episode but Littlefinger seems incredibly blessed and Dany now has a formidable air force in a medieval setting. What can possibly stop her? So long as they remain air born then the dragons are untouchable. She doesn’t need much of an army. Land and get army provisioned. Advance with your three dragons and reign death from above. Send army in to mop up. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/157 "2016-06-20T18:19:46Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Dany now has a formidable air force in a medieval setting. What can possibly stop her? So long as they remain air born then the dragons are untouchable. She doesn’t need much of an army. > > Land and get army provisioned. Advance with your three dragons and reign death from above. Send army in to mop up. And not only that, but her army is actually pretty frightening - Unsullied and Dothraki. And now she has to means to bring them over. Though I’m guessing there will be a twist coming, or else the rest of show is dreadfully anti-climactic. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/158 "2016-06-20T18:20:00Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Though I’d argue that the army of the Vale and the Slaver’s fleet differ from the other examples insofar as they had to stay relatively in the open for quite some time while the opponent was not totally preoccupied with the defence against an ongoing attack. Stannis’s army had to land north of the Wall and then ride across half the width of Westeros when they apparently no communication with the Night’s Watch to know what was going on with the Wildling army. They somehow had to know exactly where the Wildling army was, without the Wildlings having detected them for the weeks their march would have taken. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/159 "2016-06-20T18:20:14Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Sansa has been going on a nice arc of growth and redemption but this storyline where she withholds information is just breaking all of that down. A convo between her and Brienne could have seeded this easily - her saying that she is hiding it because she needs it to be a surprise to Ramsay and Jon would utilize it in his plans, needs to draw out Ramsay, etc. That would have been fine then nothing else needs to change. As it is her hiding information makes her character less likeable. That doesn’t work, if she tells Breanne her plan then Breanne will flat out refuse to go try and get help from the BlackFish. Sansa being likable is hardly a concern, She just wrote off her still living brother as long dead because unlike a lot of people she was willing to accept the reality of the situation. That is hardly a likable thing to do, but it is what a realist would do in that situation. Knowing how messed up Ramsay is and knowing what an amateur Jon is was already shown inside the episode. Jon talking about challenging Ramsay to a duel “I wanted to make him angry, so hes coming at us full tilt” Reality Ramsay gives actual negative fucks, sets Rikon free so he can murder him 2 steps away from his brother Jon who still knows nothing. Jon then does the exact opposite of what Sansa warned him about. “Just don’t do what he wants you to do” Jon was played by a master manipulator into acting like an idiot. Jon is fighting like a bad ass, his men fight like bad asses, they are still losing because they abandoned their Defenses, you know the ones they made specifically to prevent getting caught in a pincer? The battle of the Basterds was in reality a battle between Sansa and Ramsay. She started planning this after meeting with Balish in Mulls town (or whatever its called) and we know this because she deliberately withheld the information about a large cavalry force willing to fight on their side. You are free to say shes a bad person, or a dumb person, or its crappy writing, but I personally think you are looking at the best writing of the season if not the show. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/160 "2016-06-20T18:22:14Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Land and get army provisioned. Advance with your three dragons and reign death from above. Send army in to mop up. As Tyrion has pointed out to her, winning battles isn’t the same as ruling. Even the Unsullied, the Second Sons, and the Dothraki won’t be enough to occupy all of Westeros without local support. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=9)