# Game of Thrones 6.09 "Battle of the Bastards" 6/19/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789 "2016-06-19T17:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/161 "2016-06-20T18:25:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > IIRC, Dany asked Tyrion if they had enough ships now to take Westeros, and he said with the Greyjoy and Masters’ ships, they just about have enough, but it didn’t sound like overwhelming numbers. It sounds like they think they have enough to put on a good fight now, but not to easily take over. But maybe they aren’t aware of the turmoil in Kings Landing, which would maybe make it easier to take over. The original plan to bring the Dothraki over has been made obsolete by the events that have transpired. The first is that Dany now has the unsullied. They are going to be much better at holding cities than the Dothraki would be. The second is that she has fully grown dragons. She simply doesn’t need to transport an army anymore. All she needs is 100 or so soldiers as personal body guards and her dragons. The dragons are powerful beyond their ability to kill men. Think about two armies fighting. Both sides best case scenario are that they win the battle with minimal causalities while destroying the other army. Humans tend to be optimistic and expect the best case scenario. Individual soldiers on both sides fight because they think they can win without dying. Contrast that with dragons. Your best case scenario against a dragon is 100s of your side burnt to a crisp. No one in their right mind is going to fight. Dany can land outside a city somewhere and give them the option of surrendering and acclaiming her queen or fighting. The first city might fight. Maybe the second city will as well. But the third, fourth, etc. aren’t going to fight once they hear what happened to the cities that opposed her. They will defect to her side and bring troops. All she needs is enough men to protect her from assassination. She can find her army on the way. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/162 "2016-06-20T18:26:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Right. Warden is an appointed title, not a hereditary one (although in practice it usually goes to the same house). Sansa may claim the title of Wardeness of the North, but it wouldn’t be official without Tommen’s agreement (which won’t happen). Then how did Ramsay end up with that title? The Lanisters know about his marriage to Sansa and consider them Traitors to the crown, Tommen would not have given him that title. I agree that it is confusing as hell though, Roose is given the title, Cersie offers it to Balish, but Ramsay and Sansa both just plan on claiming it for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/163 "2016-06-20T18:35:02Z")
You’d think the people of Essos would know better than to badmouth Dany straight to her face. Everyone who has done it has burned, starting with her own brother. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/164 "2016-06-20T18:35:16Z")
Dany and the Dragons are also going to have to contend with Dorne who I suspect have a Dragon killing poison since they were the only ones to kill the dragons last time around. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/165 "2016-06-20T18:37:16Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Then how did Ramsay end up with that title? The Lanisters know about his marriage to Sansa and consider them Traitors to the crown, Tommen would not have given him that title. > > I agree that it is confusing as hell though, Roose is given the title, Cersie offers it to Balish, but Ramsay and Sansa both just plan on claiming it for themselves. Right. Neither Ramsay nor Sansa were appointed by the Crown. Littlefinger was promised the appointment when he told Cersei of the Bolton’s plan to have Ramsay marry Sansa (which was actually his own plan). If anyone is “officially” Warden of the North at this point I think it is Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/166 "2016-06-20T18:38:32Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Dany and the Dragons are also going to have to contend with Dorne who I suspect have a Dragon killing poison since they were the only ones to kill the dragons last time around. If anything, Dorne will be on her side against the Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/167 "2016-06-20T18:41:13Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Dany and the Dragons are also going to have to contend with Dorne who I suspect have a Dragon killing poison since they were the only ones to kill the dragons last time around. I thought the dragons became smaller and smaller until they died out. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/168 "2016-06-20T18:47:29Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Right. Neither Ramsay nor Sansa were appointed by the Crown. Littlefinger was promised the appointment when he told Cersei of the Bolton’s plan to have Ramsay marry Sansa (which was actually his own plan). > > If anyone is “officially” Warden of the North at this point I think it is Littlefinger. Which leads me to believe he’ll want marriage to Sansa as payment for his troops in order to solidify his Warden-ess. To be honest, Sansa could do worse-- and has. Although this means Winterfell is no longer a Stark stronghold. Until Bran shows up. Then what? ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/169 "2016-06-20T18:49:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I thought the dragons became smaller and smaller until they died out. I know that in show it was discussed between Tywin and Oberyn that they would need the help of Dorne in fighting Dany in the future. In any case Dorne did not fall to the Dragons, they remained unconquered and later joined the 7 kingdoms because they wanted to. In the season sets there are extras that mention one of the original dragon riders threatening the Dornish and when she comes back with her dragon the Dornish kill both her and her dragon. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/170 "2016-06-20T18:50:47Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > That doesn’t work, if she tells Breanne her plan then Breanne will flat out refuse to go try and get help from the BlackFish. > > Sansa being likable is hardly a concern, She just wrote off her still living brother as long dead because unlike a lot of people she was willing to accept the reality of the situation. That is hardly a likable thing to do, but it is what a realist would do in that situation. I think it’s a possible interpretation but because it wasn’t shown or hinted at that Sansa was playing at this game it wasn’t believable to me. And what’s Sansa going to say to Jon - I knew you’d screw it up so I let thousands of your allies die when in fact they could have lived if I told you to wait like 30 minutes? If this was all orchestrated by Sansa I just wish they did a better job of setting it up. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/171 "2016-06-20T18:53:03Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As Tyrion has pointed out to her, winning battles isn’t the same as ruling. Even the Unsullied, the Second Sons, and the Dothraki won’t be enough to occupy all of Westeros without local support. Which she will get fairly easily once she has taken King’s Landing and sits there with a massive army and three flying death machines. Maybe not everyone but enough will play the odds and jump into supporting her. The needs to be a credible alternative to the dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/172 "2016-06-20T18:56:24Z")
The dragons remind me of an old SNL skit with Garrett Morris dressed up in a general’s suit. “What if Napolean had a B-52?” ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/173 "2016-06-20T19:03:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > She was at the parley but wasn’t shown to be present at the battle. I doubt she could have survived the scrum if she had been there. She and Melisandre probably remained back at camp. I meant that she didn’t just stay home on Bear Island, she made the trip with the troops. I didn’t really expect her to be swinging a sword. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/174 "2016-06-20T19:04:03Z")
Something that struck me when Sansa was telling Ramsay about how he’d be totally forgotten, that he had no impact on history… Given how much the producers like to set up expectations and then foil them, how about if Sansa is pregnant? The time line is always fuzzy, maybe it’s been so long since Sansa fled that she knows there is zero chance of that. But otherwise… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/175 "2016-06-20T19:04:37Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Which leads me to believe he’ll want marriage to Sansa as payment for his troops in order to solidify his Warden-ess. That won’t help as long as Cersei has anything to do with it, since she believes Sansa helped kill Joffrey. By helping Sansa and the Starks, Littlefinger has clearly betrayed the Lannisters once and for all. I doubt that even he can explain his way out of it to Cersei anymore. While Cersei doesn’t have much influence with Tommen anymore, there would be no reason for him to confirm Littlefinger or Sansa as Wardens of the North. This may not matter since if Cersei’s prophecy is correct Tommen’s days are numbered (I think the number is most likely six at this point ;)) so there won’t be anyone to officially appoint a Warden until a new ruler is recognized. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/176 "2016-06-20T19:07:09Z")
> [@Yersenia\_Pestis](#): > > Crazy prediction: rickon comes back as a white walker (assuming that they overrun wall and, eventually, winter fell) If that were to happen, perhaps more Starks, too. Ned? Where is Robb’s body? Ned’s sister, even, who meets Jon and…? All the Starks in the crypt? > [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Tyrion sure talked himself out of a bind in a hurry, Dany didn’t even really seemed pissed at him. Well, when Dany was last in Meereen, the Sons of the Harpy were causing a ton of problems. She should be thankful things weren’t worse when she came back. > [@wintertime](#): > > Looks like I’m on of the few (so far) who didn’t like the episode much. True, the bad guys shouldn’t win just to invert a tired cliché – but the lucky fool is an even worse one. Can’t say I loved it as much as some, either. Obviously awesome composition of the battle sequences, but strategically it felt too contrived. Some tweaks I like: - When Ramsay releases Rickon and it’s obvious Ramsay plans to shoot him down, Jon realizes this as he approaches and develops a plan. Instead of charging straight at Rickon, Jon begins weaving his horse back and forth across the battlefield. The panicked Rickon begins weaving back and forth trying to run toward Jon, making it impossible for Ramsay to land a shot. As they draw close, they make a beeline for each other, allowing Ramsay, annoyed, one last good shot. Just as Jon lifts Rickon, the arrow strikes the horse and they all go down. Ramsay orders the cavalry in to finish them and the battle proceeds as shown. Have Rickon die on the battlefield somehow if he must (trampled in the mob face-to-face with Jon before Jon claws his way up?). - Ramsay is a solid military strategist, but his tactics don’t really account for a giant, something completely new. When encircled, Wun Wun picks up a couple of corpses from the battlefield and swings them as clubs, breaking the shield wall on one side and causing havoc, causing certain death for some of the attackers to turn back into a pitched battle. The Vale cavalry comes in and crushes the other side of the shield wall. - As others have said, Ramsay should have been taken down by an arrow or two in Winterfell, especially after Ramsay killed Wun Wun but more likely before (why would Ramsay kill Wun Wun instead of taking the free shot at Jon anyway?). Make the arrow wounds non-fatal and proceed accordingly. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To sum up, big flaws should have big consequences, and Ramsay’s random sadism and cruelty never did. That should have been a big part of his downfall. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/177 "2016-06-20T19:15:49Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > Well, when Dany was last in Meereen, the Sons of the Harpy were causing a ton of problems. She should be thankful things weren’t worse when she came back. Like having the city on fire, under attack, and under siege? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/178 "2016-06-20T19:19:00Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > Ned? Where is Robb’s body? Ned and Robb were both decapitated, and Ned’s body is just disarticulated bones. I think bodies need at least some physical integrity to be reanimated as wights. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/179 "2016-06-20T19:21:21Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Like having the city on fire, under attack, and under siege? Wasn’t that pretty much how she left it? In fact, I think she was surprised to find her court still in the pyramid. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789/180 "2016-06-20T19:22:12Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Like having the city on fire, under attack, and under siege? Yeah, like the city could have been completely back in control of the Masters and all of the Unsullied and her allies dead. > [@Colibri](#): > > Ned and Robb were both decapitated, and Ned’s body is just disarticulated bones. I think bodies need at least some physical integrity to be reanimated as wights. Probably true, but having a reanimated Ned is so “rule of cool” I wouldn’t put it past the writers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-09-battle-of-the-bastards-6-19-16-show-discussion/757789.md?page=10)