# Game of Thrones 6.10 "The Winds of Winter" 6/26/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472 "2016-06-26T23:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/241 "2016-06-27T19:44:27Z")
Little detail I haven’t seen mentioned yet, it looked to me like the chandelier at the citadel was the same as the “sun” in the opening credits. I would for Sam to stumble upon a pop-up Westeros map. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/242 "2016-06-27T19:44:50Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Pycelle - Was he a molester of some of the little birds? If I remember correctly, he was mentioned as depraved and seemed to always have a prostitute in his bed. And having always prostitutes in his bed points at him being interested in grown up women. We never had any hint that he molested any kid. Simply, the kids aren’t that nice. They’re street urchins who presumably have been living a harsh life. Think of street children from Bogota or somesuch enlisted and protected by a cartel or gang and told to do some dirty work. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/243 "2016-06-27T19:47:43Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > I have seen this being mentioned a couple of times, and I wonder why he is considered a moral character? > > He failed to inform the King and his Hand about Cersei’s incest at a time when a devastating conflict could have been avoided. And he did so to instigate the chaos that led to incredible suffering throughout the Kingdoms, because he is one of the traitors and conspirators who worked for a long time, even when the Seven Kingdoms were at peace and prospered, to bring back the Targaryen rule. > > Varys is not as responsible as Littlefinger for the pitiful state of affairs in Westeros at a time when the Seven Kingdoms need unity more than for thousands of years - but he is a close second; and he has made it clear that he considers all this devastation necessary and acceptable to reinstate the Targaryens. > > This is not moral. This is brutal power politics. No, Varys tried to keep peace by not stirring up shit between King Robert and his Queen, but Cersei stirred it up anyway. He then tried his best to maintain the Realm while Joffrey was on the throne. After Joffrey and Tywin died, he saw that the Lannister/Baratheon dynasty was an incompetent dead end, and so went looking for the last Targaryen. Varys did not support Daenerys or any Targaryens until Season 5. In the first season we even see Varys counsel Robert (to Ned’s dismay) to kill Dany while she was still a weak pregnant teenager and before she could pose a real threat to Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/244 "2016-06-27T19:47:50Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > I have seen this being mentioned a couple of times, and I wonder why he is considered a moral character? > > He failed to inform the King and his Hand about Cersei’s incest at a time when a devastating conflict could have been avoided. And he did so to instigate the chaos that led to incredible suffering throughout the Kingdoms, because he is one of the traitors and conspirators who worked for a long time, even when the Seven Kingdoms were at peace and prospered, to bring back the Targaryen rule. > > Varys is not as responsible as Littlefinger for the pitiful state of affairs in Westeros at a time when the Seven Kingdoms need unity more than for thousands of years - but he is a close second; and he has made it clear that he considers all this devastation necessary and acceptable to reinstate the Targaryens. > > This is not moral. This is brutal power politics. Varys may not be a moral character in the sense that he’s what we would consider “morally upright.” But he’s a consistently moral character in the sense that he works for what he thinks is best for the Realm, and sticks with it. He doesn’t let his own desires or whims get in the way of his goal, and he’s trying to do the most good for the most people (which differentiates him from Littlefinger’s all-consuming self-interest). At least as far as we can tell. I don’t think Varys’ goal is to reinstate the Targaryens, but to instate Daenerys Targaryen specifically, because she has the potential to take and hold the Iron Throne and be a just ruler. I don’t recall Varys being aware of Cersei and Jaime before Ned was, but it’s been a while since I watched Season One. Also, there’s a strong argument that the Seven Kingdoms were _not_ prospering under King Robert. Maybe peaceful, but not prosperous. Sure, the War of the Five Kings certainly made things much worse, but Robert was running things into the ground anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/245 "2016-06-27T19:48:38Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > I have seen this being mentioned a couple of times, and I wonder why he is considered a moral character? Morally consistent, which is not the same as Moral. He seems to always have the good of the realm in mind (as he sees it) but he would certainly let others die if that is what is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/246 "2016-06-27T19:49:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think the main thing that was lost was the twistiness of George RR Matin’s plotting. We kept expecting all these twists, because that’s what we’ve grown accustomed to on the show, but instead they’re just charging straight ahead with predictable TV plotting. Some of it was really, really good, but overall it lacked the nuance of Martin’s writing. I think it’s a step worse than that. Not only did the obvious thing happen most of the time, but the obvious thing happened in a way that required characters to do really stupid things. So the writers decide that Ramsay should betray and murder Roose. Fine, a reasonable and in-character thing for Ramsay to do. But it should require at least the slightest tiny bit of cleverness. Same for the sand snakes assassinating Doran. Why was the slaver navy so unprepared for dragons? Why did the Tully forces surrender immediately? Why didn’t Rickon try to dodge left or right at all? And of course we’ve argued about Arya to death. The number of times this season that we were arguing in the episode thread about what happened, not because there was a twist yet to be revealed, but because what we saw was confusing and incomplete, was way way higher than any previous season. > [@](#): > > Jon doesn’t want to kill her, but he doesn’t want her anywhere near his men or the battle since she has a history of carrying out evil acts while being wrong. And yet, she did resurrect him and appears to be on the same side, so he was caught in a dilemma. So you think he doesn’t think she be useful against the Night King? I suppose that’s possible… but again, not at all made clear. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/247 "2016-06-27T19:51:41Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Little detail I haven’t seen mentioned yet, it looked to me like the chandelier at the citadel was the same as the “sun” in the opening credits. I would for Sam to stumble upon a pop-up Westeros map. Actually, the [“chandelier”](http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/library.jpg) was a cool detail. It looks like it’s a system of mirrors to light the library with sunlight instead of relying on candles. I don’t think it matches the sun in the opening credits, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@Sandwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwood)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/248 "2016-06-27T19:54:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well, I wouldn’t say she’s going to be passive - no more than Lady Mormont is. She’ll be the representative of Winterfell and of House Stark. Probably the second most powerful person in the North after Jon, and an active player in the events to come. […] > > She needed Jon to be King, but she still controls Winterfell and her own people, just as Lady Mormont does. The thing is, I don’t see how Sansa could control anyone or anything now, especially with all the people obviously loyal to _Jon_ specifically. Most of the heads of the Houses don’t really seem to even care about her being there or not, and the recent past has shown that she had zero influence on any of them when trying to negotiate. To me it seems like right now she has no power at all, and I don’t know how that could chance, unless she directly influences and/or manipulates Jon. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/249 "2016-06-27T20:10:21Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Varys did not support Daenerys or any Targaryens until Season 5. In the first season we even see Varys counsel Robert (to Ned’s dismay) to kill Dany while she was still a weak pregnant teenager and before she could pose a real threat to Westeros. In Season 1, [Varys is shown plotting with Illyrio Mopatis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjPBtlhBls) from Pentos, the protector of Viserys and Dany, to restore the Targaryens. He tells Illyrio that a civil war is brewing between the Starks and the Lannisters, so that plans for an invasion by the Dothraki should be moved up. I believe that Robert proposes to assassinate Dany, and while Varys appears to go along with it he only takes action once he is directly ordered to do so once it is found out she is pregnant. It seems that Varys preferred a Targaryen restoration even when it was the horrible Viserys who was in line. But maybe he thought that was preferable to the Baratheons and Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/250 "2016-06-27T20:48:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also there is no one left in the order of succession AFAIK. Anyone with a quasi-legitimate claim on the throne - Stanis, Renley, Joefrey, Tomlin and all the Baratheon bastards except for Gendry - are dead. I am not a spelling Nazi but I had to point out that Lily sure would fit into the Girl Power theme of this season. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/251 "2016-06-27T21:11:43Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I am not a spelling Nazi but I had to point out that Lily sure would fit into the Girl Power theme of this season. Ernestine would certainly put everyone in their place! ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/252 "2016-06-27T21:31:28Z")
I’m not a meme maker. In fact, this is only my second one [but I like it and think it’s appropriate.](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/Biggirl/fight%20like%20a%20girl.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/253 "2016-06-27T21:38:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Hmm. It looks like you’re right. There’s only a few though, and they didn’t go to any lengths to make that clear (although they depicted the other components of the fleet in the Ironborn, the Unsullied, and the Dothraki). Dorne has never been mentioned as having significant sea power, but maybe a few ships were sent back with Varys. I don’t see any evidence of Tyrell ships, though. There are some ships with green sails in the wide shot, so I assume those are from Highgarden. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/254 "2016-06-27T21:42:20Z")
I’m glad someone brought up logistics because right now Dany looks unstoppable. She has how many thousands of troops at her disposal? The North can barely get a few thousand up and going so what can they do against that? Her horse riders as basically barbarians who will ransack Westeros and bring misery wherever they go and she has her flying death machines. It just seems a bit overwhelming. I predict that Tyrion murders Dany with the Queen’s Hand pin she gave him 🙂 Also, it’s a lineage that really shouldn’t be anywhere near power. I’m cheering for the white walkers. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/255 "2016-06-27T21:42:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think I recall that. But IIRC they pretty much laughed at him, but probably because it was Pycelle. > > Qyburn seems to be taking on multiple portfolios. At this point he seems to be functioning as Hand of the Queen, Grand Maester (although not technically a maester), and Master of Whisperers, although most posts on the Small Council are officially vacant. Is Master of Whispers an official position? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/256 "2016-06-27T21:42:33Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I’m not a meme maker. In fact, this is only my second one [but I like it and think it’s appropriate.](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/Biggirl/fight%20like%20a%20girl.jpg) What, no Brienne?:dubious: There’s also the Waif, Osha, Meera Reed, and Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes. Olenna’s pretty badass too in her own way. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/257 "2016-06-27T21:44:13Z")
> [@theR](#): > > Bran … is going … to Winterfell after that since it has a sacred tree. So, can Bran just hole up in Winterfell and access his powers through that tree? Is that how it works? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/258 "2016-06-27T21:44:57Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > Is Master of Whispers an official position? Yes. It’s like the head of the CIA. The Master of Whisperers is the head of intelligence and espionage for the Iron Throne. Varys was the previous one. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/259 "2016-06-27T22:06:16Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What, no Brienne?:dubious: > > There’s also the Waif, Osha, Meera Reed, and Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes. Olenna’s pretty badass too in her own way. I only have so much room on my hard drive. **ETA:** OMG. King’s Landing! I finally get the joke. Hahaha-- wait, that’s not funny. That’s sad. _snort_ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/260 "2016-06-27T22:10:55Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > There are some ships with green sails in the wide shot, so I assume those are from Highgarden. I couldn’t make them out. Most of the sails look pretty dark. Although we didn’t see it, I would guess the Ironborn ships have the kraken sigil on their sails. I noticed that while Dany’s ship and that of the Unsullied have dragon figureheads, several ships have horse figureheads, which I guess are occupied by the Dothraki. A lot of them just have plain bows, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=14)