# Game of Thrones 6.10 "The Winds of Winter" 6/26/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472 "2016-06-26T23:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/361 "2016-06-28T18:36:46Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Varys had turned a traitor when Dany was a girl, the daughter of a mad man and the sister of an entitled jackass. What feats of outstanding governmental aptitude had she shown sitting around in Braavos that convinced Varys she could do such a fine job of ruling Westeros that it was worth yet another bloody and devastating civil war (after her family had caused quite a few in Westeros already)? > [@](#): > > Varys was only concerned about the incest because [the truth was coming out too soon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjPBtlhBls) for his war. But he was willing to accelerate the time-table to use the truth to the Targaryens’ advantage. > > As you know, Varys supports someone else in the books - but we won’t go there at all; in the show, Arya overhears Varys’ plotting against the crown in season one (see link further up). I think the original plan centered around Viserys; when he got himself killed, the focus switched to Dany. > > Varys’ actions against Dany make perfect sense in the book, carrying them over to the show was a mistake and created, imo, a plot hole that cannot be explained away satisfactory. > > But it makes sense to accept the scene from season one in the catacombs as an insight into Varys’ lenghty plotting against the crown. > [@](#): > > I might easily be proven wrong on the show, but I don’t think he is a moral character at all. His support for the Targaryens before one of the two survivors showed any sign of divinely ordained superiority should make you wonder what his motivation could have been at that time? I did mention in a later post that Varys was plotting to restore the Targayens even before he knew anything about Dany. However, as you mention Varys actions in the first few seasons are confusing and inconsistent with regard to his motivations. However it was shown earlier, in recent seasons Varys actions have been depicted as having the good of the realm as their basis. Why else would he assist Tyrion in escaping? The writers have been pretty consistent in establishing Varys as a “good guy” now (to the extent anybody is a good guy on the show) for several years. Whatever his motivation, Varys doesn’t seem to be acting purely in his own self interest. > [@](#): > > He has not just said but also shown that he is interested in Sansa; she is his Queen of Love and Beauty, the personification of his own version of the American dream. Yeah, but that’s still just Littlefinger’s own self interest. He has zero interest in what Sansa actually wants. Littlefinger’s actions are entirely selfish. If he did anything for Catelyn, or does anything for Sansa, it’s only to ingratiate himself with them. > [@](#): > > Didn’t Jamie promise him nice rooms at Casterly Rock? He did, but Walder reneged and imprisoned him again. It would appear that Jaime has gone back to his oathbreaking ways. Maybe he made Walder promise to send Edmure to Casterly Rock, but he should have known Walder couldn’t be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/362 "2016-06-28T18:40:04Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > It makes dynastic sense for her to marry Robin. Littlefinger is of no family or hereditary wealth. He is only watching over things until the true Lord of the Vale and Warden of the ??? comes of age. He was given a Knighthood and Harrenhall. He also has that piece of shit rocky land he was born on. Plus more money than the Lannisters probably have at the moment and control of the Robin’s lands and Tully army. Plus, Robin-- ugh! If that’s her best choice maybe she should wait for Tyrion to come back and work on their marriage. Actually, I hope we do see Tyrion and Sansa meet up again and Sansa apologizes to him and tells him he was the best husband she ever had. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/363 "2016-06-28T18:49:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You’re right. I see that the two parts of _Mad Men_ and _The Sopranos_ so-called “final seasons” were about a year apart. I’ve usually watched programs on DVD after they were completed. This is the first time I’ve caught up with a show before its final season. Splitting a “final season” is pretty sleazy, in my opinion. We the audience end up getting what for all intents and purposes appears to be two shortened seasons, but it only counts as a single season in terms of contracts. Thus, no raises or renegotiations for the actors because it’s all “one season,” and their contracts are structured by seasons. Scummy all around, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/364 "2016-06-28T18:59:04Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Splitting a “final season” is pretty sleazy, in my opinion. We the audience end up getting what for all intents and purposes appears to be two shortened seasons, but it only counts as a single season in terms of contracts. Thus, no raises or renegotiations for the actors because it’s all “one season,” and their contracts are structured by seasons. Scummy all around, if you ask me. Aside from the contract issues, calling them “split seasons” instead of two separate short seasons makes some sense in the case of programs like _Breaking Bad_, _Mad Men_, and _The Sopranos_ because each season has its own self-contained story arcs. In the case of _Game of Thrones_, based on a book series, the overall story has its own arc. Splitting it into “seasons” is more arbitrary, since the seasons don’t even correspond to single books in the series. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/365 "2016-06-28T19:03:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > However it was shown earlier, in recent seasons Varys actions have been depicted as having the good of the realm as their basis. (…) Whatever his motivation, Varys doesn’t seem to be acting purely in his own self interest. I know, I repeat myself (and I won’t do it again, promised): What is this “good”? Is this good worth another civil war? Is it worth a Dothraki horde among helpless townsfolk and peasants? Is it worth using WMDs? In other words: Can this “good” still be called good if you plan to do so much evil? However, it could very well be that we are supposed to swallow a loaded sentence like “I do this for the good of the realm” and don’t question it. I’d never believe it plausible in the books - Martin’s stance should be known - but, yeah, it might be true in the show. > [@Colibri](#): > > Yeah, but that’s still just Littlefinger’s own self interest. He has zero interest in what Sansa actually wants. Littlefinger’s actions are entirely selfish. If he did anything for Catelyn, or does anything for Sansa, it’s only to ingratiate himself with them. I don’t think this is true; he wants to be loved by her. And this is only relevant if it’s not just you in your own universe. > [@Colibri](#): > > He did, but Walder reneged and imprisoned him again. It would appear that Jaime has gone back to his oathbreaking ways. Do you think this was done on purpose or did the writer not consider the implication? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/366 "2016-06-28T19:28:30Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > However, it could very well be that we are supposed to swallow a loaded sentence like “I do this for the good of the realm” and don’t question it. I’d never believe it plausible in the books - Martin’s stance should be known - but, yeah, it might be true in the show. We’ll see, but at least over the last few seasons Varys actions appear to be consistent _with what he believes to be the good of the realm_. Of course, setting a horde of Dothraki and Ironborn loose on the countryside is likely to have unintended consequences. > [@](#): > > I don’t think this is true; he wants to be loved by her. And this is only relevant if it’s not just you in your own universe. That may be the case, but Littlefinger’s love is purely selfish. He doesn’t care about Sansa’s happiness if she doesn’t love him. If he’s convinced she never will, he’ll be happy to destroy her. > [@](#): > > Do you think this was done on purpose or did the writer not consider the implication? There’s been so much sloppy writing it’s hard to say, since it was just a throwaway line by Walder and we don’t know exactly what happened. But the fact remains that Jaime’s promise to Edmure wasn’t kept. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/367 "2016-06-28T19:36:17Z")
Why did no one tell me (in the last 5 minutes, as I’m not going back and reading the past few threads) that Lady Mormont is a RAMSEY? 😛 (Bella Ramsey, to be precise) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/368 "2016-06-28T19:39:17Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > A country is not a private household. Spending money, even money you just borrowed, means that people get that money. Robert wasn’t building monuments and rasing armies with that money, he injected it into the economy. This helps to spread prosperity, it doesn’t take it away. > > Debts are irrelevant for a country as long as the creditor cannot force you to give it all back. He wasted it on big tournaments and festivals. Your POV is akin to saying the government should spent millions+ on having the Olympics because it will help the country… when, we’ve seen it does not. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/369 "2016-06-28T19:41:13Z")
What was the point of the conversation between Jaime and Walder Frey, in which Jaime basically told off Walder Frey for not personally engaging in combat? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/370 "2016-06-28T19:44:55Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Why did no one tell me (in the last 5 minutes, as I’m not going back and reading the past few threads) that Lady Mormont is a RAMSEY? 😛 (Bella Ramsey, to be precise) Hey, but RAMSEY _has nothing to do_ with RAMSAY. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/371 "2016-06-28T19:47:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > What was the point of the conversation between Jaime and Walder Frey, in which Jaime basically told off Walder Frey for not personally engaging in combat? Giving him shit because Walder disgusts him even though he’s an ally. The most respected leaders in Westeros are those who have shown prowess as warriors, especially in personal combat. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/372 "2016-06-28T19:49:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Giving him shit because Walder disgusts him even though he’s an ally. The most respected leaders in Westeros are those who have shown prowess as warriors, especially in personal combat. It’s also because Walder is bragging about the Freys and Lannisters doing all this stuff, when they Freys haven’t done anything. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/373 "2016-06-28T19:52:05Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > And before you mention his deal with the Boltons: so far, we have no proof that he knew the extent of Ramsay’s depravation. Actually, it makes no sense to believe that he did. He told Ramsay that he didn’t know anything about him, and that was a rare thing. > [@](#): > > I’d go further, and say that we have witnessed the defects of the feudal system itself. Davos’ and Tormund’s dialogue about trusting the wrong kings or rather kings in general seemed to be a sign of a growing recognition that something was fundamentally wrong … - but then they joined in when the “King of the North” was hailed by those lords. Tormund didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/374 "2016-06-28T19:54:39Z")
I read somewhere (maybe here or on Twitter) that Littlefinger (with regard to Sansa) is like Snape if Lily Potter had had a girl. He doesn’t love her. He wants a connection through her to Cat whom he loves. I think there’s some truth to that. Also he’s a creep. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/375 "2016-06-28T20:01:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Hey, but RAMSEY _has nothing to do_ with RAMSAY. 😉 Potato / Potatoe 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/376 "2016-06-28T20:02:05Z")
I should add-- If Sansa (or Jon, for that matter) knew how Littlefinger was instrumental in getting Ned killed back in season 1, they wouldn’t be so cozy with him. In fact, that was exactly what I thought of when he gave Sansa that look during the Kingadahill! chant. ‘Got rid of Ned to get to Cat, I’ll get rid of Jon to get to Sansa.’ ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/377 "2016-06-28T20:09:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Of course, setting a horde of Dothraki and Ironborn loose on the countryside is likely to have unintended consequences. It’s not an [unintended](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc15sYzPFwU) consequence for the queens he supports. > [@Colibri](#): > > That may be the case, but Littlefinger’s love is purely selfish. He doesn’t care about Sansa’s happiness if she doesn’t love him. If he’s convinced she never will, he’ll be happy to destroy her. Ah, now I see what you mean: caritas versus cupiditas. This point of view has merits. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > He wasted it on big tournaments and festivals. Your POV is akin to saying the government should spent millions+ on having the Olympics because it will help the country… when, we’ve seen it does not. A lot of money must have flown elsewhere - there had been a civil war, after all, and this usually means destruction of strongholds, bridges and other infrastructure, burned mills and burned fields and other important economic assets and on and on and on. And though it’s likely that most of the money was coming from other coffers, it was in the best interest of the crown to help out - and the peace that Jon Arryn achieved is hard to imagine if the crown had ignored the needs of struggling Houses. The idea that \*everything \*went to tournaments and festivals is ridiculous. It was certainly a drain on the spendable money - but since creditors were still willing to lend money, it’s not a desaster for the economy; it’s more likely helping it. The difference to Olympics is that the immensely expensive and later usually underutilized infrastructure is such a drain, not the event itself. You compare apples and oranges. > [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Tormund didn’t. Right! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/378 "2016-06-28T20:11:23Z")
Hold on, time out: if the Wall has magic juju powers such that the White Walkers can’t pass – what is everyone so worried about? Winter is here: how can they tell? As far as we know, it’s been snowing at Winterfell for six seasons now. The best\* part of the entire episode cleared up something that’s been bothering me since Season 1. Why do the opening credits include that effect of an lens passing over the map (like an optometrist’s “which is better…1 or 2?”) when there are no optics in this universe? But then we see the maester in the Citadel wearing a medieval pair of glasses. \*ok, maybe not the absolute best. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/379 "2016-06-28T20:14:19Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Hold on, time out: if the Wall has magic juju powers such that the White Walkers can’t pass – what is everyone so worried about? > > Winter is here: how can they tell? As far as we know, it’s been snowing at Winterfell for six seasons now. > > The best\* part of the entire episode cleared up something that’s been bothering me since Season 1. Why do the opening credits include that effect of an lens passing over the map (like an optometrist’s “which is better…1 or 2?”) when there are no optics in this universe? But then we see the maester in the Citadel wearing a medieval pair of glasses. > > \*ok, maybe not the absolute best. Also at the Citadel was that thingy from the opening credits with the sun in the middle and the stags fighting lions. It was the chandelier. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/380 "2016-06-28T20:19:57Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Hold on, time out: if the Wall has magic juju powers such that the White Walkers can’t pass – what is everyone so worried about? The White Walkers haven’t been seen for thousands of years, and no one knows very much about them after all that time. All we’ve been told is that Benjen, as a sort-of-dead man, can’t pass. It’s not established that the White Walkers can’t, who may not actually dead. In fact, at least two wights passed through The Wall with no evident problems: the two apparently dead Night’s Watch, one of whom attacked Mormont. Sam remarked that they were not as decayed as they should have been, which implies that they were already wights when they were carried through the Wall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=20)