# Game of Thrones 6.10 "The Winds of Winter" 6/26/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472 "2016-06-26T23:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/441 "2016-06-29T22:03:58Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Only Howland Reed and Ned knew about Jon’s parentage so it is unlikely either Littlefinger or Varys knows… Littlefinger seems to know quite a bit more than we expect. I guess one can also learn quite a bit by hanging out in low places. Wasn’t he the one who guided Ned toward discovering the Lannister secret? As someone mentioned up thread, there were nurses at the Tower of Joy. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/442 "2016-06-29T22:04:51Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Unless she genuinely loved and quite possibly even married Rhaegar and wanted to honour (she is a Stark) his Targaryen heritage, but in secret. Not to get too meta about it but what the hell would be the point of the _“His name is…mumble mumble…”_ if we’re just gonna be told something we already know. Well, also she is dying and may not be entirely rational. Or she could tell Ned the name she wants assuming he will conceal the child under another name. Ned is presumably smarter than Obi-Wan Kenobi to give a hunted child a giveaway name. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/443 "2016-06-29T22:09:45Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > I think the idea is that it’s a remote location that’ll be far away from any likely battlefields. Almost certainly died during childbirth, she was guarded by the best men in the Kingsguard and there’s no evidence that anyone went through them before Ned, Howland and the others. > > Listening back on the scene with the [volume cranked way up](https://soundcloud.com/user-583325554/got-forensic) I definitely hear an Ae- sound, sounds like he might be named after his paternal grandfather Aerys to me but the Reddit speculation picked up by all the blogs is that it’s Jaehaerys. I can only hear two syllables though, YMMV. Sounds like it ends with an ‘s’ sound but that might be [Bran sucking in air](https://youtu.be/Y3IwIB7yfO8?t=233) in reaction to it. Local Bran ruins everything again. > > What is pretty clear is that she says _“If Robert finds out he’ll kill him, you know he will. You have to protect him. Promise me, Ned. Promise me.”_ > Which makes it fairly obvious that Rhaegar is the baby daddy, why else would Bobby B want to kill him? > [@Rigamarole](#): > > I saw some of this speculation, and it makes no sense whatsoever. She literally just warned Ned about Robert wanting to kill him, so of course she wouldn’t give him a blatantly Targaryen-sounding name. After she says “His name is…” the only logical next thing for her to say is “Jon”, because his name is Jon. That’s his name. Why would she tell Ned his name and then Ned decides to randomly change it to Jon? > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > She tells Ned in the next sentence, Robert would kill him if he ever found out. Found out what? As he narrates on the [Sack of King’s Landing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKu2oyqOt58) _“Babies or no, theirs was the same cursed blood that flowed within the Mad King’s veins. They were dragonspawn, and couldn’t be allowed to survive. What would they grow to be, loyal subjects?”_ > > So Ned taking home a baby Aemon or Aerys or whatever would rather give the game away that he’s a Targaryen, so he calls him Jon, a common enough name, perhaps after his friend Jon Arryn. > [@Rigamarole](#): > > Right… which is why it would be utterly stupid of her to give him a Targ name in the first place, which she knew could never be used. Might as well give him an actual name. And that name is Jon. Is everyone ignoring Post #428? HBO has released an [Infographic](http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic) outright showing Rhaegar as Jon Snow’s father. Rhaegar Targaryen: Parent. Lyanna Stark: parent. I don’t see how it can be up for debate anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/444 "2016-06-29T22:23:30Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > Is everyone ignoring Post #428? HBO has released an [Infographic](http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic) outright showing Rhaegar as Jon Snow’s father. Rhaegar Targaryen: Parent. Lyanna Stark: parent. I don’t see how it can be up for debate anymore. People aren’t debating who his father is, but what _Lyanna told Ned_ the baby’s name was. It wasn’t necessarily Jon (although he was called Jon by Ned). ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/445 "2016-06-29T22:30:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > People aren’t debating who his father is, but what _Lyanna told Ned_ the baby’s name was. It wasn’t necessarily Jon (although he was called Jon by Ned). Oh. Heh. Personally I would love it if it were just some normal name not used in the show before, like…“Steve” ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/446 "2016-06-29T22:32:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > People aren’t debating who his father is, but what _Lyanna told Ned_ the baby’s name was. It wasn’t necessarily Jon (although he was called Jon by Ned). Right, and what she said doesn’t matter anyway. Although it would be completely pointless for her to give him a name which could never be used, and then have Ned give him a non-name that everyone calls him by. And even if he found out he had another name at this point, he would still go by Jon and we would all still call him Jon, and it would be absolutely no service to the story. What’s important is his **lineage** , not some name they wanted to give him but never did. And we agree on what his lineage is. As to why they cut out the audio after she says “His name is…”, it was probably as simple as the fact that they wanted the audience to infer the connection based on the next shot of Jon rather than hitting us over the head with it. But I still think she said “his name is Jon”, because his name is Jon, not Targy McTargFace. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/447 "2016-06-29T22:32:57Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > Oh. Heh. Personally I would love it if it were just some normal name not used in the show before, like…“Steve” “Sue.”😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/448 "2016-06-29T22:35:57Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Right, and what she said doesn’t matter anyway. Although it would be completely pointless for her to give him a name which could never be used, and then have Ned give him a non-name that everyone calls him by. You’re arguing this on the basis of _pointlessness_ after some of the stuff we’ve seen this season?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/449 "2016-06-29T22:47:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You’re arguing this on the basis of _pointlessness_ after some of the stuff we’ve seen this season?:dubious: Well, you know what would really piss me off? If she said “his name is John. Spelled with an ‘H’”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/450 "2016-06-29T23:30:01Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > ?..As to why they cut out the audio after she says “His name is…”, it was probably as simple as the fact that they wanted the audience to infer the connection based on the next shot of Jon rather than hitting us over the head with it. But I still think she said “his name is Jon”, because his name is Jon, not Targy McTargFace. This is how I took it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/451 "2016-06-29T23:59:10Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > Oh. Heh. Personally I would love it if it were just some normal name not used in the show before, like…“Steve” Styve? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/452 "2016-06-30T01:06:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I don’t think I can answer this based purely on the show, but since we’ve never been shown a bigamous marriage in contemporary Westeros I think it’s a pretty safe bet. In TV commentary, Martin has stated that marriage in Westeros is based on marriage in medieval Europe. I don’t think this is a safe bet at all. The general population of Westeros seems to find the idea of brother-sister incest to be repulsive. Yet, the Targaryen royal family mandated it for the monarch. And we know for a fact that the founder of the dynasty was polygamous. So there’s at worst an even chance that Rhaegar could have produced a legitimate heir through a second marriage while staying married to his first wife. Unless anything explicit is said, it’s pretty much a toss-up. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/453 "2016-06-30T01:21:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think this is a safe bet at all. The general population of Westeros seems to find the idea of brother-sister incest to be repulsive. Yet, the Targaryen royal family mandated it for the monarch. And we know for a fact that the founder of the dynasty was polygamous. So there’s at worst an even chance that Rhaegar could have produced a legitimate heir through a second marriage while staying married to his first wife. > > Unless anything explicit is said, it’s pretty much a toss-up. But wouldn’t a royal marriage have been a pretty big headline, even to a second wife? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, I would think that everyone would know and we’d have heard about it by now. If Lyanna went willingly, what purpose would it serve to keep it secret? The Targayens were the rulers, so one would think that they made the rules. I have wondered how would Rhaegar and Lyanna would even know each other to have a relationship deep enough to elope. ETA: so my conclusion is that she was abducted. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/454 "2016-06-30T01:30:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Well, also she is dying and may not be entirely rational. Or she could tell Ned the name she wants assuming he will conceal the child under another name. > > Ned is presumably smarter than Obi-Wan Kenobi to give a hunted child a giveaway name. Maybe his father named him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/455 "2016-06-30T01:55:33Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > But wouldn’t a royal marriage have been a pretty big headline, even to a second wife? If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, I would think that everyone would know and we’d have heard about it by now. If Lyanna went willingly, what purpose would it serve to keep it secret? The Targayens were the rulers, so one would think that they made the rules. I have wondered how would Rhaegar and Lyanna would even know each other to have a relationship deep enough to elope. > > ETA: so my conclusion is that she was abducted. One reason to keep it secret would be because it upset the network of alliances that supported the status quo. Lyanna was promised to Robert and he started a war over her. The Starks also had an interest in preserving their connections with the Baratheons. And yes a royal marriage would have been s big deal if Rhaegar and Lyanna had told anyone. Perhaps there was a reason for them to keep it secret. Or perhaps the war was already under way before they could tell anyone and after that it made sense to wait until after the war was over. Maybe the Mad King himself was a reason to keep it secret. Maybe the Martells would have worried about their position if the heir apparent to the throne produced non-Martell issue. After the rebellion succeeded, Ned would want to keep it secret to prevent Robert from losing his mind even more. The absence of information doesn’t support either possibility over the other. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/456 "2016-06-30T01:58:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t think this is a safe bet at all. The general population of Westeros seems to find the idea of brother-sister incest to be repulsive. Yet, the Targaryen royal family mandated it for the monarch. And we know for a fact that the founder of the dynasty was polygamous. So there’s at worst an even chance that Rhaegar could have produced a legitimate heir through a second marriage while staying married to his first wife. > > Unless anything explicit is said, it’s pretty much a toss-up. You may think whatever you want, but you’re wrong.😉 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/457 "2016-06-30T13:10:44Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I saw some of this speculation, and it makes no sense whatsoever. She literally just warned Ned about Robert wanting to kill him, so of course she wouldn’t give him a blatantly Targaryen-sounding name. After she says “His name is…” the only logical next thing for her to say is “Jon”, because his name is Jon. That’s his name. Why would she tell Ned his name and then Ned decides to randomly change it to Jon? Well…not everybody follow threads about the show online. Many viewers are going to be unaware of the R+L= J theory. I suspect we didn’t hear the name simply to keep the reveal for the moment when the camera switched from the baby’s face to Jon’s face. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/458 "2016-06-30T13:25:43Z")
Lipreader discovers Jon Snow’s real name: [Jaehaerys](http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/news/a37467/jon-snows-real-name-lip-reading/) ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/459 "2016-06-30T14:57:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Lipreader discovers Jon Snow’s real name: [Jaehaerys](http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/news/a37467/jon-snows-real-name-lip-reading/) Are they _sure_ that’s the correct spelling, though? ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/460 "2016-06-30T15:13:49Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Are they _sure_ that’s the correct spelling, though? “That’s Jaehaerys, with a Y” “I’ve got a tall latte for Yaharis!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=24)