# Game of Thrones 6.10 "The Winds of Winter" 6/26/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472 "2016-06-26T23:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/521 "2016-07-03T18:48:14Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > I’d like to see Drogon die and be resurrected by the Night King. The dead horses of the White Walkers have already shown us that his ability isn’t restricted to humans. Which raises the question, what would a dragon-wight shoot from his mouth? Giant snowballs? > [@Pedro](#): > > It especially annoyed me to see the dragons hovering above the flaming ship. Physics, GoT, it’s a thing. What about a 700-foot tall ice wall that’s only a few dozen feet wide? Something like that would collapse instantly under its own weight, not last for thousands of years. What about Faceless Men who can change not only their faces but the size of their bodies? What about humans who are invulnerable to fire (including their hair)? How about fatal wounds that heal almost instantly? Magic, it’s a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/522 "2016-07-03T19:19:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Magic, it’s a thing. So it takes a daddy dragon and a mommy dragon to make baby dragons but when they flap their wings it’s “magic”. Uh. OK, in that case I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/523 "2016-07-03T19:51:57Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > So it takes a daddy dragon and a mommy dragon to make baby dragons but when they flap their wings it’s “magic”. Uh. OK, in that case I was wrong. From the TV shows, we don’t actually know that it takes a daddy dragon and a mommy dragon to make baby dragons. We know that baby dragons come from dragon eggs, but beyond that we know nothing about their reproductive habits. For all we know it requires some kind of spell to make a dragon egg. You’ve already pointed out that according to physics, dragons shouldn’t be able to fly. Yet we see them fly. Ergo, something other than physics enables them to fly. It’s either magic, or (gasp!:eek:) Martin and the showrunners ignore the laws of physics because it looks cool. As with any other thing in the story, you can fanwank it so it makes sense (assuming magic “makes sense”), or simply accept that it is a work of fantastical fiction and not worry about it. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/524 "2016-07-03T20:12:32Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You’ve already pointed out that according to physics, dragons shouldn’t be able to fly. Yet we see them fly. Ergo, something other than physics enables them to fly. It’s either magic, or (gasp!:eek:) Martin and the showrunners ignore the laws of physics because it looks cool. As with any other thing in the story, you can fanwank it so it makes sense (assuming magic “makes sense”), or simply accept that it is a work of fantastical fiction and not worry about it. I’m not worrying, just making conversation and dispensing astute observations. There are levels to suspension of disbelief. This is a detail but somewhat cartoonish. I very specifically mentioned hovering (cf Pterodactyls). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/525 "2016-07-03T20:18:43Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > I’m not worrying, just making conversation and dispensing astute observations. There are levels to suspension of disbelief. This is a detail but somewhat cartoonish. I very specifically mentioned hovering (cf Pterodactyls). But doesn’t the fact that Drogon is far too big to fly at all require even greater suspension of disbelief? Once you’ve accepted that animals much bigger than a tyrannosaur can fly the details of how they fly seem pretty trivial. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/526 "2016-07-03T20:42:21Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Which raises the question, what would a dragon-wight shoot from his mouth? Giant snowballs? Wouldn’t that be funny? Much better than cloning Iceman’s ability sheet. There is so much pop culture precedence that the only power that might be able to stop the dragon match of Ice versus Fire is known as Budget the Impaler. > [@Colibri](#): > > From the TV shows, we don’t actually know that it takes a daddy dragon and a mommy dragon to make baby dragons. We know that baby dragons come from dragon eggs, but beyond that we know nothing about their reproductive habits. For all we know it requires some kind of spell to make a dragon egg. They might also pull a Jurassic Park and switch genders. In any case, magic. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/527 "2016-07-03T21:28:24Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > But doesn’t the fact that Drogon is far too big to fly at all require even greater suspension of disbelief? Once you’ve accepted that animals much bigger than a tyrannosaur can fly the details of how they fly seem pretty trivial. Well, no, that’s the crux of my point. One is led to suspect that something like a Pterodactyl required a cliff to be able to take off. Very few birds can sustain hovered flight and the few that do are something of an engineering marvel. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/528 "2016-07-03T21:36:49Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Well, no, that’s the crux of my point. One is led to suspect that something like a Pterodactyl required a cliff to be able to take off. Very few birds can sustain hovered flight and the few that do are something of an engineering marvel. It’s almost like the genre is called fantasy for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/529 "2016-07-03T21:56:35Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > One is led to suspect that something like a Pterodactyl required a cliff to be able to take off. Except they didn’t need to, as has been shown with models. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/530 "2016-07-03T21:59:23Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > It’s almost like the genre is called fantasy for a reason. Yeah, whatever. Please forgive me for interrupting the discussion on dragon biology then. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/531 "2016-07-03T22:10:05Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Yeah, whatever. Please forgive me for interrupting the discussion on dragon biology then. I’m just saying, a TV show where a character lives for thousands of years and raises an army of undead because he got stabbed in the chest with a stone dagger is probably not the best place to look for scientific rigour. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/532 "2016-07-03T22:15:11Z")
Forget it! Totally off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/533 "2016-07-03T22:19:07Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > I’m just saying, a TV show where a character lives for thousands of years and raises an army of undead because he got stabbed in the chest with a stone dagger is probably not the best place to look for scientific rigour. I get it. Magic. Vagina assassinations. Etc. The disconnect seems to be that the notion that dragons fly _in the GoT universe_ on the basis of magic is absurd to me. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/534 "2016-07-03T22:24:10Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > I get it. Magic. Vagina assassinations. Etc. The disconnect seems to be that the notion that dragons fly _in the GoT universe_ on the basis of magic is absurd to me. Well, they are supernatural creatures who were born in a fire. That actually works for me, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/535 "2016-07-03T22:36:01Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Well, no, that’s the crux of my point. One is led to suspect that something like a Pterodactyl required a cliff to be able to take off. Very few birds can sustain hovered flight and the few that do are something of an engineering marvel. > [@Pedro](#): > > Yeah, whatever. Please forgive me for interrupting the discussion on dragon biology then. But we’ve already established that it’s impossible for something that big to fly at all in an Earthlike atmosphere or gravity (which seems to apply to the GoT world). The maximum estimate for the weight of Quetzalcoatlus, the largest pterosaur, is around 500 pounds. [Drogon now is easily the size of a Tyrannosaurus](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/b3JC5ScYJj0/maxresdefault.jpg), if not larger, and Tyrannosaurus is estimated to have weighed at least 6 tons, or 24 times larger than Quetzalcoatlus.[And the largest dragons were far larger than that](http://i.imgur.com/kXV39Di.jpg). ([Here’s a Tyrannosaurus skull for comparison.](http://static.bhigr.com/store/files/product_images/detailed/d_784.jpg)) A large Tyrannosaurus skull is about 5 feet long; that of the dragon skull next to Arya looks to be about 10 feet long, assuming Arya is 4 feet tall. So a really big dragon is going to weigh several dozen tons at least. If we’re using pterosaur flight as a guide, even if a dragon launched itself from a cliff it would drop like brick (and make a hell of a big hole when it hit the ground). Details of how they fly are trivial compared to the impossibility of them flying at all. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/536 "2016-07-03T22:40:36Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > The disconnect seems to be that the notion that dragons fly _in the GoT universe_ on the basis of magic is absurd to me. It’s impossible for them to fly _by any means other than magic._ ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/537 "2016-07-03T22:56:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s impossible for them to fly _by any means other than magic._ Are the giants magic too? That’s not what is commonly understood by magic in this context. I call it supension of disbelief. It’s a different universe. Anyway, let me amend my point to say hovering dragons are much more magical than gliding dragons. Probably sloppy artistic direction too. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/538 "2016-07-03T23:24:46Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > I get it. Magic. Vagina assassinations. Etc. The disconnect seems to be that the notion that dragons fly _in the GoT universe_ on the basis of magic is absurd to me. I honestly can’t remember whether this is from the show, the books, or both, so I’ll double spoiler it: When the dragons were born, magicians in the GOT world (almost all of whom were unaware that there were now living dragons) noticed that their spells were suddenly more powerful. It’s as if the dragons are not only magical themselves, but they radiate magical powers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/539 "2016-07-03T23:26:13Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Are the giants magic too? That’s not what is commonly understood by magic in this context. I call it supension of disbelief. It’s a different universe. Actually, the giants are depicted in a way that make them biologically reasonable. They aren’t built like humans, but have [huge, elephantine legs](http://www.ew.com/sites/default/files/styles/tout_image_612x380/public/i/2013/03/31/GOT-Giant.jpg?itok=6knANTfg) that would be capable of supporting their enormous weight. I was actually rather glad to see that they got that detail right. (And their enormous noses are consistent with having to warm air in a cold dry climate, like [saiga antelopes](http://www.jeannemelanson.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Endangered-Saiga-Antelope-2.jpg) of central Asia. )The giants are not particularly implausible, and far, far less so than the dragons. > [@](#): > > Anyway, let me amend my point to say hovering dragons are much more magical than gliding dragons. Probably sloppy artistic direction too. Once you’ve got a multi-ton animal airborne, it doesn’t much matter how it flies. And I’m still unclear why you find that you can suspend your disbelief that such giant animals can fly, but not that they can hover. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/540 "2016-07-03T23:29:35Z")
Eh, like the Giants, a coasting dragon can kinda pass the looks test. Lots of big birds can glide. Obviously when you actually break down the weight to surface area ratio, it falls apart, but a fast moving mostly gliding giant dragon isn’t completely jarring. Hovering is a much more difficult and rare trait among flying things, though, and stretches the feelings of plausibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=28)