# Game of Thrones 6.10 "The Winds of Winter" 6/26/16 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 26, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472 "2016-06-26T23:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/541 "2016-07-03T23:30:49Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > And I’m still unclear why you find that you can suspend your disbelief that such giant animals can fly, but not that they can hover. And the answer to that is physics. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/542 "2016-07-03T23:34:59Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > And the answer to that is physics. And the riposte to that is “logic.” ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/543 "2016-07-03T23:47:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And the riposte to that is “logic.” Cool. You burned me, congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/544 "2016-07-03T23:48:14Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I honestly can’t remember whether this is from the show, the books, or both, so I’ll double spoiler it: > > When the dragons were born, magicians in the GOT world (almost all of whom were unaware that there were now living dragons) noticed that their spells were suddenly more powerful. It’s as if the dragons are not only magical themselves, but they radiate magical powers. Aha, it is in the show. The third season finale. When Dany is trying to get her dragons back from the warlocks in Qarth, she’s told that they want to keep them because their magic is stronger with the dragons around. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/545 "2016-07-03T23:59:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Eh, like the Giants, a coasting dragon can kinda pass the looks test. Lots of big birds can glide. Obviously when you actually break down the weight to surface area ratio, it falls apart, but a fast moving mostly gliding giant dragon isn’t completely jarring. > > Hovering is a much more difficult and rare trait among flying things, though, and stretches the feelings of plausibility. I think that’s just because you’re not very familiar with watching birds fly. Even large birds [like eagles](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQjEjZujgMo) and [ospreys](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-t-5gfrP_Q) can hover. Once you accept that dragons can fly at all, seeing them hover doesn’t look very implausible to me in comparison. They only hover for maybe 20 seconds. > [@Pedro](#): > > And the answer to that is physics. Can you explain the physics involved in a multi-ton animal flying?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/546 "2016-07-04T00:18:48Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Can you explain the physics involved in a multi-ton animal flying?:dubious: Must I, really? Wikipedia has this [to say:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight#Hovering) > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Hovering is used by several species of birds and specialized in by one family. True hovering, which is generating lift through flapping alone rather than as a product of the bird’s passage through the air, demands a lot of energy. This means that it is confined to smaller birds; the largest bird able to truly hover is the pied kingfisher, although larger birds can hover for short periods of time. Larger birds that hover for prolonged periods do so by flying into a headwind, allowing them to remain stationary relative to the ground or water. Kestrels, terns and even hawks use this windhovering. I know you are putting emphasis on multi-ton, but again, I’m talking about degrees of plausibility. The fact that true hovering is more difficult than flying at speed is objectively true. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/547 "2016-07-04T01:20:46Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > I know you are putting emphasis on multi-ton, but again, I’m talking about degrees of plausibility. The fact that true hovering is more difficult than flying at speed is objectively true. My point it that it’s not significantly more implausible than a multi-ton animal flying in the first place. You’re quibbling over maybe a 10% greater extension of capabilities, when the animal is already more than 20 times larger than the largest known flying creature. It’s really comparatively trivial in terms of capability. It’s like complaining that the giants shouldn’t be able to run if you accept the fact that they can walk. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/548 "2016-07-04T01:22:55Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > I know you are putting emphasis on multi-ton, but again, I’m talking about degrees of plausibility. The fact that true hovering is more difficult than flying at speed is objectively true. My point it that it’s not significantly more implausible than a multi-ton animal flying in the first place. You’re quibbling over maybe a 10% greater extension of capabilities, when the animal is already more than 20 times larger than the largest known flying creature. It’s really comparatively trivial in terms of capability. It’s like complaining that the giants shouldn’t be able to run if you accept the fact that they can walk. > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Wikipedia > Hovering is used by several species of birds and specialized in by one family. True hovering, which is generating lift through flapping alone rather than as a product of the bird’s passage through the air, demands a lot of energy. This means that it is confined to smaller birds; the largest bird able to truly hover is the pied kingfisher, although **larger birds can hover for short periods of time.** Larger birds that hover for prolonged periods do so by flying into a headwind, allowing them to remain stationary relative to the ground or water. Kestrels, terns and even hawks use this windhovering. Bolding mine. The dragons are shown only hovering for short periods of time. I’ve already posted videos of large birds hovering. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/549 "2016-07-04T01:31:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > My point it that it’s not significantly more implausible than a multi-ton animal flying in the first place. You’re quibbling over maybe a 10% greater extension of capabilities, when the animal is already more than 20 times larger than the largest known flying creature. It’s really comparatively trivial in terms of capability. There’s no way that that figure is 10%, if you measure it in terms of exertion compared to level flight at speed. > [@](#): > > It’s like complaining that the giants shouldn’t be able to run if you accept the fact that they can walk. It’s actually an apt comparison. Walking is controlled falling. Running is much, much more taxing. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/550 "2016-07-04T01:39:45Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > There’s no way that that figure is 10%, if you measure it in terms of exertion compared to level flight at speed. Whatever. My main point holds. Flight by such large animals is so utterly impossible in the real world that hovering doesn’t add significantly to the implausibility. > [@](#): > > It’s actually an apt comparison. Walking is controlled falling. Running is much, much more taxing. So why aren’t you complaining about the giants running? ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/551 "2016-07-04T02:11:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Whatever. My main point holds. Flight by such large animals is so utterly impossible in the real world that hovering doesn’t add significantly to the implausibility. Disagree. > [@](#): > > So why aren’t you complaining about the giants running? I’ll get to it. Arya takes priority on my complaint list. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/552 "2016-07-04T02:15:48Z")
…::yawn:: I was watching-- I think Young Turks do a GOT after show (youtube was on autoplay) and their conversation was largely banal, fanboying, but there was an interesting juxtaposition I hadn’t noticed–Jaime and Littlefinger were in similar positions in the “coronations”-set apart, unnoticed and not looking too happy. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/553 "2016-07-04T02:32:34Z")
Did I misunderstand or did that little girl kill, butcher, and bake into pie two grown men inside an enemy castle? And where did she get that girl’s face? She’s into defacing random people now? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/554 "2016-07-04T02:40:37Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Whatever. My main point holds. Flight by such large animals is so utterly impossible in the real world that hovering doesn’t add significantly to the implausibility. Could we finagle the math? Something like Planetos has .7 the gravity of Earth (which might make more plausible some of the incredible feats of strength and athleticism by some of our heroes); the dragons have very light, hollow bones with even higher strength-to-weight ratios than birds; Planetos has a thicker atmosphere at sea level than Earth (maybe double the nitrogen, or something, which I think wouldn’t affect biology much)…? Could all this add up to a very large animal the size of Drogon, and larger, being able to fly? Just for fun? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/555 "2016-07-04T03:48:14Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > …::yawn:: > > I was watching-- I think Young Turks do a GOT after show (youtube was on autoplay) and their conversation was largely banal, fanboying, but there was an interesting juxtaposition I hadn’t noticed–Jaime and Littlefinger were in similar positions in the “coronations”-set apart, unnoticed and not looking too happy. Nobody looked too happy at Cersei’s coronation. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/556 "2016-07-04T03:50:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > .Planetos has a thicker atmosphere at sea level than Earth (maybe double the nitrogen, or something, which I think wouldn’t affect biology much)…? That would make the atmosphere approximately 156% nitrogen. And nitrogen is lighter than oxygen, anyway. Double the oxygen, and maybe you’ve got something. The fire would burn hotter, it would be easier for animals to perform strenuous physical feats like hovering, and the atmosphere would be heavier. ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/557 "2016-07-04T07:09:41Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > So it takes a daddy dragon and a mommy dragon to make baby dragons… We’ve already established in previous series’ discussion that Dany is DEFINITELY half dragon and that the Targaryens DEFINITELY have unusual marriage customs, so the lack of female full dragons may not be an issue… (or was that another website I _accidentally_ clicked on? 🆒) Not quite sure yet how potatoes and face-changing switcheroos fit into this theory, but if I can squeeze them in somehow, this one’s DEFINITELY a winner. OB ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/558 "2016-07-04T10:49:11Z")
> [@Oswald\_Bastable](#): > > We’ve already established in previous series’ discussion that Dany is DEFINITELY half dragon and that the Targaryens DEFINITELY have unusual marriage customs, so the lack of female full dragons may not be an issue… (or was that another website I _accidentally_ clicked on? 🆒) > > Not quite sure yet how potatoes and face-changing switcheroos fit into this theory, but if I can squeeze them in somehow, this one’s DEFINITELY a winner. Weird non sequitur. The bit you selectively quoted is no “theory”. Just illustrating a different point. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/559 "2016-07-04T10:56:22Z")
I suppose you are arguing that flight is magic because dragon sex something something so everything comes crumbling down for me. In that case fine. I have nothing to argue with you. Your position is silly but logically consistent. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472/560 "2016-07-04T11:42:08Z")
> [@pedro](#): > > weird non sequitur. The bit you selectively quoted is no “theory”. Just illustrating a different point. Whoosh! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-6-10-the-winds-of-winter-6-26-16-show-discussion/758472.md?page=29)