# Game of Thrones 7.01 "Dragonstone" 7/16/17 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 15, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324 "2017-07-15T15:54:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/282 "2017-07-21T21:58:40Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > How does Varys get from Merreene to Dorne and then back in time to get on a ship heading for Dragonstone? [Travel times](http://www.businessinsider.com/distances-in-game-of-thrones-2015-10?international=true&r=US&IR=T) don’t make sense in the show but [for the show](http://www.vulture.com/2016/06/got-writer-explains-travel-time-inconsistencies.html). Other improbabilities or impossibilities are worse - from my pov - because they unexpectedly violate established rules of the AGoT-universe, like [Arya’s stabbing](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4o0855/everything_why_a_recent_plotline_is_stupid_wounds/) and her [acrobatic feats](https://youtu.be/OIz117d9CvI?t=81) while fleeing from the terminator called Waif but your point bothers me, too. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/283 "2017-07-22T01:51:02Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Off-topic, but you reminded me of something I just read, [about a dude in more recent times](http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/james-shinn-book-thief) (the 1980s), who posed as a college professor and went around looting rare books from college libraries. Apparently made off with $100K+ worth of books that way. Great story. I knew Prof. William A. Moffett, mentioned in that story, at Oberlin. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/284 "2017-07-22T01:59:26Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > How does Varys get from Merreene to Dorne and then back in time to get on a ship heading for Dragonstone? We saw him travel to Dorne, where he met Olenna Tyrell and Ellaria Sand. So didn’t he travel back with them and their forces? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/285 "2017-07-22T13:06:35Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Yet, it is curious that the Children of the **Forest** had any interest in creating a weapon with the qualities the white walkers show - or gained that knowledge by themselves. It’s not in sync with their nature. And apparently, they only knew the steps toward its creation, but not what it meant to put it into their world. Unintended consequences caused by desperate people, or intended ones by someone else? > . Introducing foreign species into an environment always work so well. Just ask Australia. > [@silenus](#): > > The chains are there to keep the books from disappearing. Back when libraries were the only repositories of knowledge, books were priceless. So they were chained to the shelves. That kept people from shoving them into their doublet and going off to sell them for mead money. Like those pens banks used to have. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/286 "2017-07-22T13:07:54Z")
Oh, and Benjen is the rightful heir of the North. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/287 "2017-07-22T13:35:30Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Introducing foreign species into an environment always work so well. Just ask Australia. If the walkers are as invasive as _Oryctolagus cuniculus_, Westeros is a lost cause. Incidentally, we don’t know if the white walkers are purely an artificially (magically) created new “species” or if something/someone similar evolved naturally in a magical environment and the Children used their means to imitate the natural process. The same is true for dragons, of course. > [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Oh, and Benjen is the rightful heir of the North. Nope. The Vow of the Brothers of the Night’s Watch (show-version): > [@](#): > > Hear my words and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am … the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come. Benjen has given up all claims when he decided to become a man in black. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/288 "2017-07-22T13:40:17Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > We saw him travel to Dorne, where he met Olenna Tyrell and Ellaria Sand. So didn’t he travel back with them and their forces? I imagine we just saw Dany swoop by Dorne to pick them up on the way to Dragonstone. Getting to Dragonstone from Essos requires going right by Dorne. There’s no reason for an entire armada to sail halfway around the world and back when Dany, the Unsullied, and the Dothraki already had the Iron fleet to get them to Westeros. I think the scene at the end of season 6, with everyone already together, was supposed to take place after the stop in Dorne, not in Slaver’s Bay at the beginning of the trip. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/289 "2017-07-22T13:42:13Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Nope. The Vow of the Brothers of the Night’s Watch (show-version): > > Benjen has given up all claims when he decided to become a man in black. Even if the Night’s Watch vows didn’t take him out of the line of succession, Bran would still be lord of Winterfell over Benjen. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/290 "2017-07-22T13:45:25Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Even if the Night’s Watch vows didn’t take him out of the line of succession, Bran would still be lord of Winterfell over Benjen. Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/291 "2017-07-22T17:26:45Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Even if the Night’s Watch vows didn’t take him out of the line of succession, Bran would still be lord of Winterfell over Benjen. Right. The line of succession goes to Ned’s children before his brother. So Benjen would be next only if all of Ned’s legitimate children were dead. Of course, since Jon Snow was freed of his Night Watch vows by having been killed, then Benjen, since he is also dead (for certain values of “dead”) would also be free of them. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/292 "2017-07-22T17:40:25Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Right. The line of succession goes to Ned’s children before his brother. So Benjen would be next only if all of Ned’s legitimate children were dead. > > Of course, since Jon Snow was freed of his Night Watch vows by having been killed, then Benjen, since he is also dead (for certain values of “dead”) would also be free of them. 😉 True, but being dead and brought back as something between human and wight would also disqualify him from being Lord of Winterfell. If all of Ned’s children end up dead (or decline in Bran’s and probably Arya’s case), Jon would be next in line as Lyanna’s son. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/293 "2017-07-22T18:03:43Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > True, but being dead and brought back as something between human and wight would also disqualify him from being Lord of Winterfell. Cite? 😉 I doubt there is a specific provision in the laws of inheritance. > [@](#): > > If all of Ned’s children end up dead (or decline in Bran’s and probably Arya’s case), Jon would be next in line as Lyanna’s son. Depends on whether being a bastard is seen of less of an impediment as being dead. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/294 "2017-07-22T19:06:26Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > True, but being dead and brought back as something between human and wight would also disqualify him from being Lord of Winterfell. Not if your claim is approved by a [king](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03325/Night_s_King_Sky_A_3325474b.jpg)who considers such a state of existence preferable to any other. And there is a good chance that he will rule the North for a while. Which reminds me, I do hope that the White Walkers are more than just a force that needs to be repelled. I’d be much better if they had a good reason for their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/295 "2017-07-22T22:51:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Right. The line of succession goes to Ned’s children before his brother. So Benjen would be next only if all of Ned’s legitimate children were dead. > > Of course, since Jon Snow was freed of his Night Watch vows by having been killed, then Benjen, since he is also dead (for certain values of “dead”) would also be free of them. 😉 Yeah that was my point. His oath is now null and void, but you’re right, there’s still a legitimate son ahead of him. Would Benjen be next, before the women and the bastard son? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/296 "2017-07-22T23:07:20Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Yeah that was my point. His oath is now null and void, but you’re right, there’s still a legitimate son ahead of him. Would Benjen be next, before the women and the bastard son? To the best of my knowledge, the women in the senior line (Sansa and Arya) would be next in succession after Bran, and before Benjen. Bastards have no inheritance rights at all, unless they are legitimized. Dorne is different from the rest of Westeros in practicing strict primogeniture regardless of sex; an older daughter will inherit before a younger son. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/297 "2017-07-23T00:06:15Z")
I don’t mean to shit on people’s discussions, but if there’s one consistent message of GoT it’s that power comes from power. Ned had a perfectly “legal” piece of paper signed by Robert naming him regent, and Cersei tore it up, because she had the military power behind her. So while it might be an interesting diversion to discuss who is the next “rightful” heir to Winterfell, it matters not at all. What power structure possibly exists that could enforce such a claim? If Bran shows up and the northerners don’t believe that a cripple should inherit, then he will not inherit, period. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/298 "2017-07-23T01:01:38Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Oh, and Benjen is the rightful heir of the North. Only if he what happened to him counts as “dying” as well so he can get of the Night’s Watch on the same technicality Jon did. And even then you renounce all your rights before you join, I doubt you get those back. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/299 "2017-07-23T02:13:37Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I don’t mean to shit on people’s discussions, but if there’s one consistent message of GoT it’s that power comes from power. Ned had a perfectly “legal” piece of paper signed by Robert naming him regent, and Cersei tore it up, because she had the military power behind her. So while it might be an interesting diversion to discuss who is the next “rightful” heir to Winterfell, it matters not at all. What power structure possibly exists that could enforce such a claim? > > If Bran shows up and the northerners don’t believe that a cripple should inherit, then he will not inherit, period. It does matter. Why could Cersei command those men? Because they thought she had power. Belief in rules and tradition and laws have power. It all comes back to [Varys’ riddle to Tyrion.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpL6Fwu0wkw). Power resides where people believe it resides. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/300 "2017-07-23T02:19:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > When Euron’s fleet landed at King’s Landing, the camera focused on one ship in particular. Presumably this was his flagship, but it was elaborately decorated, with a gllded carved figurehead. It did not look at all like something someone slapped together. As said, this was the product of skilled shipbuilders. Could be a glamour. > [@msmith537](#): > > Same thing for both armadas. Are we to assume that both navies have been spending the past year delaying their invasions while they adorn their sails and ship hulls with dragon and squid livery? > . . . And if Euron truly painted his sails he’s an idiot. What better way for the dragons to be sure which ships they should burn, and which to leave alone in a complicated naval battle? > [@DrCube](#): > > A live one, at least. She washed a lot of dead bodies in Braavos. Good point. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Only if he what happened to him counts as “dying” as well so he can get of the Night’s Watch on the same technicality Jon did. And even then you renounce all your rights before you join, I doubt you get those back. So, are you arguing that Jon - as a bastard - had no rights, so he didn’t renounce them when he joined? But Benjen did? 😕 The fact is that it goes through all of Ned’s descendants before it goes back a generation to find the next closest. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324/301 "2017-07-23T03:07:47Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > So, are you arguing that Jon - as a bastard - had no rights, so he didn’t renounce them when he joined? But Benjen did? 😕 > > The fact is that it goes through all of Ned’s descendants before it goes back a generation to find the next closest. _If_ they hadn’t been members of the Night’s Watch, and/or dead, and ignoring the issue of legitimacy (and so an entirely theoretical discussion;)), Benjen would be ahead of Jon since Jon’s claim was through Ned and Benjen’s sister Lyanna. Benjen would have inherited ahead of his sister and thus ahead of her son. (If Jon had been Ned’s son he would have inherited ahead of Benjen, again ignoring issues of legitimacy.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-01-dragonstone-7-16-17-show-discussion/791324.md?page=16)