# Game of Thrones 7.02 "Stormborn" 7/23/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 23, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955 "2017-07-23T17:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/81 "2017-07-24T17:39:38Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > It looks like confusion as to what the travel plan was–I thought Yara was taking the Ellyaria back to Dorne to raise the actual Dornish army in order to march them to King’s landing to begin the siege … but was it sailing to the king’s landing area WITH the army in order to start the siege when they were attacked? Seems weird that there wouldn’t be any Dornish troops on the ship. They were on the way to Dorne to get the army still. I think the scene with Euron in King’s Landing happened sometime before Dany got to Dragonstone. He already left before they showed up. He knew the only chance would be to take them on in the open ocean. Going straight to Dragonstone would leave them vulnerable to the dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/82 "2017-07-24T17:42:01Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Yara and her fleet were on a cruise down to pick up (or drop off, not really clear on the timeline there) the Dornish army and getting her bisexual freak on. They weren’t really expecting trouble and I don’t think even knew about the giant fleet Euron magically had built. On the other hand, Euron had spent years working as a very successful pirate and was actively hunting Yara’s fleet. It is not that surprising that Euron caught Yara’s fleet flatfooted. > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > It looks like confusion as to what the travel plan was–I thought Yara was taking the Ellyaria back to Dorne to raise the actual Dornish army in order to march them to King’s landing to begin the siege … but was it sailing to the king’s landing area WITH the army in order to start the siege when they were attacked? Seems weird that there wouldn’t be any Dornish troops on the ship. If the encounter took place between Dragonstone and King’s Landing it would be the most extraordinary failure of intelligence that we’ve seen on the show so far, in a world where armies are regularly caught flat-footed by the failure to do even minimal scouting. Euron has just sailed probably the largest armada Westeros has ever seen halfway round the continent, past a thousand miles of hostile coastline in the Reach and Dorne. Apparently no one has seen them and passed the word on to Danys alliance. Varys is an experienced spymaster. His “Little Birds” in King’s Landing have been co-opted, but surely he has other sources of information. He knows about the Sept being blown up and Cersei’s other doings, but has no hint that she has acquired an enormous fleet. If Yara is coming to King’s Landing from Dorne to land a Dornish army, one would expect her to have sent a few ships ahead to scout a landing site, at least. (And as has been pointed out, there seems to be no sign of any Dornish troops on her ships.) If Euron has ambushed them on the open sea, there are other anomalies. He must have sailed past Dragonstone on his way out. Surely he would have posted a garrison at such a strategic site. In any case, it makes the most sense if the ambush took place on the open sea, as Yara was heading to Dorne. That they could effect such total surprise is implausible, but I’ll give them dramatic license for that bit. If Euron has been at sea since before Dany arrived (he couldn’t have sailed past Dragonstone undetected afterward), it begs the question as to why he didn’t attack her much smaller fleet on the high seas as they came in. But maybe the dragons would have been enough of a deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/83 "2017-07-24T17:51:09Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I could be wrong but Sansa did acknowledge on screen that she just accepts that Arya’s dead and has moved on from it. I don’t think so, I’ve been watching out for something like that. The subject usually doesn’t come up… ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/84 "2017-07-24T17:54:58Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > I don’t think so, I’ve been watching out for something like that. The subject usually doesn’t come up… I believe Sansa and Brienne discussed the relative aliveness of Arya but I don’t remember specifics. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/85 "2017-07-24T17:55:53Z")
**Push You Down** , Brienne told Sansa that Arya’s alive. A lot of the “why haven’t characters A and B had a conversation about topic C” questions, I assume they just had those conversations off camera. There’s only so much screen time. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/86 "2017-07-24T17:57:06Z")
Am I missing something? Everyone is saying that Dany’s fleet was destroyed and she no longer has ships but that isn’t true, is it. Didn’t she send her own (Targaryan) ships to Casterly Rock? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/87 "2017-07-24T18:00:31Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Am I missing something? Everyone is saying that Dany’s fleet was destroyed and she no longer has ships but that isn’t true, is it. Didn’t she send her own (Targaryan) ships to Casterly Rock? Discussed on page 1. A portion of her total ships were destroyed. Yes, she has more. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/88 "2017-07-24T18:00:51Z")
A pretty good episode, I thought. I particularly liked the scene with Dany and Varys as she grilled him, made him admit his past scheming and extracted his promise of future candor as her advisor. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > …Nathalie Emmanuel is perfect. Enthusiastically agreed. Mrworrr. > [@TruCelt](#): > > Nymeria is not able to return to being domesticated. She’s a Dire wolf, not a puppy. It sounded to me like Arya said “That’s not you.” (And that’s what the cc said on my screen.) I agree with the Ned call-back. Arya understood that neither she, nor Nymeria, were meant for a standard domestic role… I listened to her several times, and it sounded like “That’s not you” to me, too. The dire wolf wasn’t Nymeria, not anymore, just as she is not Arya who reluctantly drove the animal off. They both have changed too much to return to their old ways. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I thought he was thinking “Starks. Quick tempers. Slow minds” like he said to Ned after Ned choked him… Yes. Littlefinger has a knack for provoking the lords of Winterfell. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > …Presumably it’s like pseudoephedrine today. Asking [del]Portions Master Slughorn[/del] Archmaester **Whatever** creates a paper trail, and he’s trying to do surgery on the downlow. Ebrose. > [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > It is a little bizarre that no one brings up Cersei’s recent murder of the Pope, her uncle, her daughter-in-law and maybe thousands of other people though. I would think she would have her hands full with rioters at the moment. Fair point. I wonder if she’s maintained some level of plausible deniability in King’s Landing, even though Hot Pie, for one, seemed in no doubt as to what she’d done. > [@carlb](#): > > With Theon, I’m willing to believe that when the ship was rammed and boarded, he just started swinging his sword. He _has_ been in battle before, and even if he’s not the most fearsome warrior in the world, he was trained to fight. I can go along with the idea that the battle itself was fought on instinct and muscle memory. Once things had slowed down and it was a bit more one-on-one (and personal), and Theon was being asked to be heroic, I can see where maybe his head went to a different place and started taking in what was going on around him. The atrocities being committed around him “triggered” his Reekdom and he just couldn’t take it any more… > [@magnusblitz](#): > > I’m wondering if Theon jumping into the water was supposed to appear like a slide back to Reek, but in reality, he’s just doing the smart thing. If he attacks Euron he probably dies (or at least, Yara does), and if he stays he just gets taken prisoner or killed. Jumping into the water, maybe he can find help somewhere else… These both seem plausible. > [@TruCelt](#): > > …OMG, the transition from the pus to the pot pie. Ulgh!!.. Best. GOT. Misdirection. _Ever_. > [@DrCube](#): > > …I don’t get it either. There should have at least been some warning [for Yara’s fleet], rather than go from making out to hand to hand battle in a split-second. That’s not how naval battles work. You can see people coming a long way at sea. Granted, if Euron extinguished all the lights in his fleet, he could sneak up pretty close to Yara’s fleet in the dark of night, but he still couldn’t get so close as to _ram the freaking admiral’s ship_ before she even got a warning. Don’t they have lookouts?.. Yeah, I wondered that, too. Yara seems too good a mariner to be caught so badly flat-footed. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/89 "2017-07-24T18:01:21Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Remaining Umbers? Send out a search party? > > Rickon had not been seen for years either. The assumption was that Theon killed them. Now that it was known (not heard that for a bit) that wasn’t true, and Umbers had them perhaps someone might know. Maesters? Relatives? Last known location? Where was he heading? The assumption wasn’t that Theon had killed them since Samwell had met Bran when they crossed the wall. Presumably he told Jon about it, and he knew they could be both alive, Bran north of the wall and Rickon south of it. ---
**Author:** ![Sweetums](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Sweetums](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweetums)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/90 "2017-07-24T18:13:19Z")
Re: Euron’s fleet sneaking up on Yara’s. ``` One factor could be that his ships were pretty much identical to hers, down to the kraken on the sails. So her fleet would have been riding at anchor, drinking and flirting with Dornish women, when what looks like part of the same fleet moves out of the darkness. "No problem, they must be stragglers just arriving, or moving to a different anchorage for the night...holy crud they're attacking!" ``` ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/91 "2017-07-24T18:13:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I don’t get it either. There should have at least been some warning, rather than go from making out to hand to hand battle in a split-second. That’s not how naval battles work. You can see people coming a long way at sea. Granted, if Euron extinguished all the lights in his fleet, he could sneak up pretty close to Yara’s fleet in the dark of night, but he still couldn’t get so close as to _ram the freaking admiral’s ship_ before she even got a warning. Don’t they have lookouts? I guess it’s the same dark magic that enabled the Masters to sail a fleet into Meereen that couldn’t be seen from an 800 foot tall pyramid until they were in trebuchet range. Honestly, the “army/fleet showing up at the last minute to turn the tide” meme is getting a bit old. There are no such things as scouts or sentry pickets in Game of Thrones military doctrine? Jaime and Bron admonish the Freys for letting them march a Lannister army up their ass during the siege of Riverrun, so it’s not like the concept is completely foreign. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/92 "2017-07-24T18:22:04Z")
Sansa had been far worse to Jon than she ever was to Arya. Mind you, she’s not cold and hungry and desperate for shelter and protection anymore. But I still think she will embrace Arya and apologize for past misdeeds. I’m not so sure about Arya’s initial response, but in the end, all Starks will support the pack. Winter is here. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/93 "2017-07-24T18:22:59Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Jon’s mistake was underestimating Littlefinger, which is pretty much everyone who has ever tangled with him’s mistake. Varys is the only person who ever realized how dangerous Littlefinger is. To Jon Littlefinger delivered the knights of the vale and now that they have pledged to support him, he no longer needs Littlefinger. An understandable mistake, especially for a Stark. I think Jon isn’t sure what to do with Littlefinger. Jon absolutely doesn’t trust him (as he shouldn’t), but I don’t think he can just summarily kill or dismiss him. Which is probably the very situation Jon didn’t want to get into from the beginning. If we can learn anything from previous Stark interactions with Littlefinger, the more that Littlefinger appears to be the solution to a particular problem, the more likely he will turn on you at the worst possible time and make your problems a thousand times worse. It’s not really clear to me what Baelish’s move is here, given that his ultimate end game is to sit on the Iron Throne. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/94 "2017-07-24T18:28:39Z")
I actually think that Jon could just murder Littlefinger and get away with it. The reason nobody killed him in King’s Landing is because he was very good with money and nobody else wanted to bother with it. He was safe in the Vale because Robin listened to him. Robin isn’t in Winterfell though. Yohn Royce hates Littlefinger, and he commands the men that went north, not Baelish. Kill him, let Sansa soothe Robin, and be done with it. I’d be curious to hear his thoughts about the Army of the Dead. I imagine he doesn’t believe. I wonder if Jon has a doubting Thomas show and tell, let everyone stick their fingers in his wounds. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/95 "2017-07-24T18:29:24Z")
When Dany is questioning Varys, and he claims that he’s a servant of the people who want a just ruler, and he acknowledges that the Mad King was terrible, she asks him why he supported Viserys, if he Varys knew that he was cruel and stupid and not far from the Mad King. Varys avoids the question. But it’s a completely valid question that brings into question Varys’ characterization. Early in season 1, when he’s plotting with Illyrio, he simply looks like a Targaryen loyalist. But if we’re to believe his character since then, he’s only trying to serve the realm, and wants to replace Robert’s incompetant but relatively peaceful rule. But he had to know that Viserys would not be better than Robert, so then what’s Varys’ interest in bringing about a Viserys rule? Dany isn’t in the picture at this point as a potential ruler. It seems incompatable with him wanting what’s best for the realm. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/96 "2017-07-24T18:40:02Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > But he had to know that Viserys would not be better than Robert, so then what’s Varys’ interest in bringing about a Viserys rule? Dany isn’t in the picture at this point as a potential ruler. It seems incompatable with him wanting what’s best for the realm. Unfortunately that is a question that can only be answered by referring to those Things That Shall Not Be Mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/97 "2017-07-24T18:42:59Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > It also makes Dorne as a participant more interesting now… essentially Ellyaria staged a coup and took over… she is now out of the picture. Are there other houses that will stand up on either side or will they sit this one out? I wondered when Ellaria killed Doran who the hell is ruling Dorne now, because I doubt they’d follow the person who just murdered their beloved ruler in cold blood. Although supposedly they did… but now, _who the hell is ruling Dorne_? Are we going to finally see a Dayne? Ellaria isn’t dead yet, but she might as well be. Either way someone needs to step up in the interim to lead Dorne, which is more than just five people as far as I can tell. Dany can’t do it from Dragonstone, and don’t the Dornish hate the Tyrells, and vice versa? So Olenna can’t take over. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I actually think that Jon could just murder Littlefinger and get away with it. The reason nobody killed him in King’s Landing is because he was very good with money and nobody else wanted to bother with it. He was safe in the Vale because Robin listened to him. Robin isn’t in Winterfell though. Yohn Royce hates Littlefinger, and he commands the men that went north, not Baelish. Kill him, let Sansa soothe Robin, and be done with it. I’m not sure either Jon or Sansa know this, though. They just know Littlefinger rules the Vale now, not aware of the _very_ shaky grasp he holds on the nobility there. Baelish sure isn’t broadcasting this weakness, though I’d expect Jon to have at least talked to some of the leaders of the Vale army, including Royce. But maybe he hasn’t? At least not with Baelish out of earshot. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/98 "2017-07-24T18:44:43Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Am I missing something? Everyone is saying that Dany’s fleet was destroyed and she no longer has ships but that isn’t true, is it. Didn’t she send her own (Targaryan) ships to Casterly Rock? > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Discussed on page 1. A portion of her total ships were destroyed. Yes, she has more. Right. Best guess based on previous information is she may have lost around one third of her ships (Yara’s part of it). ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/99 "2017-07-24T18:46:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Also, my girlfriend pointed out Dany’s war council was almost all women, and then I thought about it some more and noted that three of the four men in that room were eunuchs with no penises _or_ testicles. > > Tyrion is the only one “intact”, and even that was a close call, too, considering the slaver who wanted to sell his “magical” dwarf penis. Has it ever been stated that Theon is castrated? He lost his “favorite toy” or whatever Ramsey called it, but he still has facial hair and all. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/100 "2017-07-24T18:46:38Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I wondered when Ellaria killed Doran who the hell is ruling Dorne now, because I doubt they’d follow the person who just murdered their beloved ruler in cold blood. Although supposedly they did… but now, _who the hell is ruling Dorne_? Are we going to finally see a Dayne? > > Ellaria isn’t dead yet, but she might as well be. Either way someone needs to step up in the interim to lead Dorne, which is more than just five people as far as I can tell. Dany can’t do it from Dragonstone, and don’t the Dornish hate the Tyrells, and vice versa? So Olenna can’t take over. > > I’m not sure either Jon or Sansa know this, though. They just know Littlefinger rules the Vale now, not aware of the _very_ shaky grasp he holds on the nobility there. Baelish sure isn’t broadcasting this weakness, though I’d expect Jon to have at least talked to some of the leaders of the Vale army, including Royce. But maybe he hasn’t? At least not with Baelish out of earshot. Sansa knows exactly what kind of hold Littlefinger has over the Vale. She lived there with him for some time. Robin likes her more than he likes Littlefinger. A good move for her would be to become betrothed to the little tit-sucker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955.md?page=6)