# Game of Thrones 7.02 "Stormborn" 7/23/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 23, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955 "2017-07-23T17:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/101 "2017-07-24T18:50:28Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Unfortunately that is a question that can only be answered by referring to those Things That Shall Not Be Mentioned. You know what? I’m going to bring that to the other thread because I honestly don’t remember the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/102 "2017-07-24T18:52:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I wondered when Ellaria killed Doran who the hell is ruling Dorne now, because I doubt they’d follow the person who just murdered their beloved ruler in cold blood. Although supposedly they did… but now, _who the hell is ruling Dorne_? Are we going to finally see a Dayne? > > Ellaria isn’t dead yet, but she might as well be. Either way someone needs to step up in the interim to lead Dorne, which is more than just five people as far as I can tell. Dany can’t do it from Dragonstone, and don’t the Dornish hate the Tyrells, and vice versa? So Olenna can’t take over. Doran, according to Ellaria, was despised by most of Dorne. Thought of as weak and kowed. But yeah, this could cause a huge fucking split in Dany’s alliance. Could definitely see Tyrells and Martells infighting as a result of their loss of leadership. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure either Jon or Sansa know this, though. They just know Littlefinger rules the Vale now, not aware of the _very_ shaky grasp he holds on the nobility there. Baelish sure isn’t broadcasting this weakness, though I’d expect Jon to have at least talked to some of the leaders of the Vale army, including Royce. But maybe he hasn’t? At least not with Baelish out of earshot. Sansa knows. She was there when the lords came up to throw Littlefinger out. In addition, she knows that he killed Lysa. Let Royce that, that she lied because Littlefinger had threatened her, Baelish out, and then either marry Robin or just emotionally manipulate him. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/103 "2017-07-24T18:56:08Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Has it ever been stated that Theon is castrated? He lost his “favorite toy” or whatever Ramsey called it, but he still has facial hair and all. Wouldn’t the lack of facial hair be the result of being castrated _before puberty_? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/104 "2017-07-24T18:57:43Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > When Dany is questioning Varys, and he claims that he’s a servant of the people who want a just ruler, and he acknowledges that the Mad King was terrible, she asks him why he supported Viserys, if he Varys knew that he was cruel and stupid and not far from the Mad King. Varys avoids the question. > > But it’s a completely valid question that brings into question Varys’ characterization. Early in season 1, when he’s plotting with Illyrio, he simply looks like a Targaryen loyalist. But if we’re to believe his character since then, he’s only trying to serve the realm, and wants to replace Robert’s incompetant but relatively peaceful rule. But he had to know that Viserys would not be better than Robert, so then what’s Varys’ interest in bringing about a Viserys rule? Dany isn’t in the picture at this point as a potential ruler. It seems incompatable with him wanting what’s best for the realm. It’s a bit inconsistent. In Season 1 he tells Ned Stark is loyalty is to the “People”, but it’s not clear to me how not helping Ned escape and provoking the War of the Five Kings helps the people. Other than maybe it’s not within his power to help Ned escape. And why help the Targaryan children escape, other than out of some vague interest in keeping their dynasty alive? He has no idea Viserys will turn out to be a boob and she’ll turn out to be a great Queen (more or less). I know we are meant to believe Varys and Littlefinger are playing 4D Game of Thrones on a completely different level, but it’s kind of feeling like half of it is made up after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/105 "2017-07-24T19:11:07Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Has it ever been stated that Theon is castrated? He lost his “favorite toy” or whatever Ramsey called it, but he still has facial hair and all. Castration post-puberty wouldn’t necessarily cause the loss of facial hair. I never understood the logic of castrating the Unsullied pre-puberty, since they wouldn’t develop the musculature of males that went through normal adolescence. And Grey Worm and the others are pretty weedy looking. ---
**Author:** ![Moris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moris/32/2846_2.png) [@Moris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moris)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/106 "2017-07-24T19:23:12Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > Taken prisoner. She was protecting Ellaria below deck but they were overwhelmed by Euron’s soldiers. Ellaria said, “Kill us” but the Greyjoy commander just smiled and shook his head no. Myrcella’s murderers will make a lovely engagement gift for Cersei. Speaking of the Greyjoy commander, was that Dagmar? I forgot what happened to him,. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/107 "2017-07-24T19:28:30Z")
> [@Moris](#): > > Speaking of the Greyjoy commander, was that Dagmar? I forgot what happened to him,. He was flayed alive by Ramsay after surrendering Winterfell to him. It’s unlikely it’s him.😉 ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/108 "2017-07-24T19:32:36Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Sansa knows. She was there when the lords came up to throw Littlefinger out. In addition, she knows that he killed Lysa. Let Royce that, that she lied because Littlefinger had threatened her, Baelish out, and then either marry Robin or just emotionally manipulate him. She lied about Littlefinger killing Lysa. She can’t incriminate Littlefinger without doing the same to herself. Sansa knows how crazy Robin is. She slapped him at the Eyrie. She already was married to a spoiled and bloodthirsty king, and I am sure she hates the thought of doing it again. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/109 "2017-07-24T19:37:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s a bit inconsistent. In Season 1 he tells Ned Stark is loyalty is to the “People”, but it’s not clear to me how not helping Ned escape and provoking the War of the Five Kings helps the people. Other than maybe it’s not within his power to help Ned escape. > > And why help the Targaryan children escape, other than out of some vague interest in keeping their dynasty alive? He has no idea Viserys will turn out to be a boob and she’ll turn out to be a great Queen (more or less). > > I know we are meant to believe Varys and Littlefinger are playing 4D Game of Thrones on a completely different level, but it’s kind of feeling like half of it is made up after the fact. I think Varys was one of the people who put all their hopes in Rhaegar. From what Barristan Selmy said about him, he inspired great loyalty and great hope that he would be a great king. Varys thought his brother would be like him. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/110 "2017-07-24T19:47:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > She lied about Littlefinger killing Lysa. She can’t incriminate Littlefinger without doing the same to herself. Sure she can. “I lied about Lysa because Littlefinger threated to harm me and he was standing right there.” ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/111 "2017-07-24T19:52:06Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Has it ever been stated that Theon is castrated? He lost his “favorite toy” or whatever Ramsey called it, but he still has facial hair and all. True, he might not have been cut “root and stem” as Varys was. But this _is_ Ramsey we’re talking about. I can’t imagine him leaving Theon’s balls, can you? His goal was to totally emasculate Theon (presumably in all senses of the word), and remove all his sense of manhood, pride, and his very identity. The only way I can think Ramsey would have left them is if he just hadn’t gotten around to it yet, but Theon was Reek for _years_. I’m assuming Theon is as much a Ken Doll down there as Varys and Grey Worm. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/112 "2017-07-24T19:56:18Z")
And good point about Sansa knowing all about Baelish’s problems with the Vale. I had forgotten how much she knew. Maybe she’s scheming herself about ways to use this information. She has learned a thing or two about schemes, from Littlefinger and others. But yeah, straight up murdering him doesn’t seem like it would raise many objections at this point. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/113 "2017-07-24T20:35:38Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Wouldn’t the lack of facial hair be the result of being castrated _before puberty_? :smack: of course > [@DrCube](#): > > True, he might not have been cut “root and stem” as Varys was. But this _is_ Ramsey we’re talking about. I can’t imagine him leaving Theon’s balls, can you? His goal was to totally emasculate Theon (presumably in all senses of the word), and remove all his sense of manhood, pride, and his very identity. The only way I can think Ramsey would have left them is if he just hadn’t gotten around to it yet, but Theon was Reek for _years_. I’m assuming Theon is as much a Ken Doll down there as Varys and Grey Worm. Would someone like Theon be more tortured by losing his sexuality, but not having the hormonal drive to want it, or by taking his means but not his desire? I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/114 "2017-07-24T20:42:45Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Would someone like Theon be more tortured by losing his sexuality, but not having the hormonal drive to want it, or by taking his means but not his desire? I’m not sure. Seems a bit subtle for Ramsay, even if he understood physiology enough. ---
**Author:** ![It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/it_s_not_rocket_surgery/32/312_2.png) [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/115 "2017-07-24T20:47:04Z")
It’s almost as if actor Pilou Asbæk read this [recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=830199&highlight=scenery) in preparing for his performance in this episode, because that was some serious scenery-chewing. The only thing missing was him shouting “Leeeeroy Jenkins!” as he boarded the ship. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/116 "2017-07-24T21:02:30Z")
For a long time I was of the mind that all of Westros should burn to since it was full of terrible people. And if you weren’t a terrible person, you were due for brutal death or long suffering. But seeing Tyrion’s inherent kindness is paying off is making me feel a little bit better. Do you think Grey Worm and Mel finally getting it on means that Grey Worms gonna die? I’d be sad. He had a great butt. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/117 "2017-07-24T21:24:00Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Wonder what the damages are to Dany’s fleet. Hard to tell other than Yara and Ellaria being taken. Half gone? Complete loss? With Ellaria captured, Dany has lost a few ships and a complete Ally in Yara. But whats worse is that she has lost Dorne. First thing thats going to happen, is that Cersei is going to tell Allaria to pull Dorne out of the alliance. So that means Dany is going to have to get her back, and hopefully Yara. Two ways, send in a commando team backed up by the dragons, as there is a scene in an upcoming episode, that was released before S7 began, or offer to pull out of Casterly Rock. So basically I see Dany having to commit the dragons to the rescue attempt, if she wants to keep the Tyrells from bolting, especially since it appears not all of them are committed to Oleana. All its really going to take is one atrocity by the Dothraki. Dany is going to lose a dragon, chekov’s crossbow, if it works the same like it did in the hobbit movie. Question, is that dragon going to be piloted by Tyrion when it goes down, or Dany. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/118 "2017-07-24T21:31:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The sea battle felt a little bit like an ex machina to me. How did Euron find Yara’s fleet? Even if they just happened across each other, how did no one see Euron’s fleet approaching? And don’t say “night” or “fog” because then we are back to the first question. At a guess, someone sent him a Raven saying Yara heading to Dorne with Bad Pooosey, he simply laid in wait until Yara’s flotilla overtook him and then he butt fucked her. Yara’s ships were lit up fat, dumb and happy, Euron’s fleet was blacked out. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/119 "2017-07-24T21:31:58Z")
Bringing over the Dothraki was a mistake. During this episode the scene where they talked about her goal being to take over Westeros as gently as possible because she could clearly wreck their shit indicates that she has more than enough military force without the Dothraki, and she’s trying to conquer in a way that wins the support of the local people. So then why bring the Dothraki at all? The unsullied are fine - the fact that they won’t loot and pillage and alienate the local populace means they won’t work against her cause. People will just view them as foreign mercenaries, which is something that probably happens fairly often in the wars in Westeros. Stannis employed foreign mercenaries for example. But the Dothraki are foreign invaders. Their way is to pillage and terrorize. They’re also unheard of in the seven kingdoms - Cersei is rightfully playing up that bringing a Dothraki horde to Westeros is unprecedented. Everything about their presence runs contrary to her goal to win the people of Westeros over. Now… if they had made a case that she barely had the military force to be able to conquer the seven kingdoms and needed the Dothraki, so be it. But the planning meeting basically said “okay, obviously we can conquer King’s Landing instantly, but we need to use a gentle touch” indicates that she has more than enough force and the Dothraki are purely counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955/120 "2017-07-24T21:40:26Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > But whats worse is that she has lost Dorne. First thing thats going to happen, is that Cersei is going to tell Allaria to pull Dorne out of the alliance. I have trouble imagining that Cersei would play politics with Ellaria rather than just torturing to death the woman who murdered her daughter. She’s never been able to see past the short term. And I can’t see Ellaria accepting. But Ellaria might be crucial for Dany in maintaining the alliance with Dorne, so Dany might want to get her back. With their fleet destroyed, Yara and Theon are of no further use to the alliance and present a complication if the war is eventually won and they still want independence for the Iron Islands. Dany has no incentive to rescue them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-02-stormborn-7-23-17/791955.md?page=7)