# Game of Thrones 7.04 "The Spoils of War" 8/6/2017 \[Show discussion only\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 6, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955 "2017-08-06T22:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/301 "2017-08-09T02:47:42Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > It’s a literal blink and you’ll miss it, but he [sees the explosion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjLGYqc-poc) at the Sept of Baelor 4 episodes before it happens, as well as Drogon flying over King’s Landing which hasn’t happened yet. An argument could be made that he’s only seeing what the mad king intended to happen, as we’re only seeing the wildfire detonating in the tunnels and not the actual destruction of the Sept (which, granted, had not been shown on screen at that point and would have been a HUGE spoiler). As for your second point, we see _A_ dragon flying over King’s Landing and it appears to have dark scales. Could be Drogon but it could be just as easily be another dragon. Possibly Balerion the Black Dread himself? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/302 "2017-08-09T02:54:56Z")
[quote=“aktep, post:288, topic:792955”] Here’s the scene [/QUOTE] I apologize. I could have sworn she got all three questions answered. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/303 "2017-08-09T03:18:10Z")
Was I the only one that thought Jon was leading Dany into the cave to show her more dragon eggs? I’m thinking we will see more dragon eggs before the end of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/304 "2017-08-09T03:25:23Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > From a storytelling perspective, the assassin had to be sent by someone still in play. Why bring it back up if they’re just going to resolve it with “Oh yeah, Joffrey did it. He’s already dead though.” It’s already bad storytelling. They brought up the subject again because of reasons that hopefully will pan out but it seems like the subject was dropped a while ago more because of time and editing constraints than anything. Since it happened so long ago it’s hard for me to separate the facts about the dagger that were in the book and in the show. They might be twisted together in my head so I won’t bring all that up. From what I know was in the show we rule out Tyrion. There was no reason the assassin needed a fancy blade to kill. It’s only purpose was to point a finger at someone. Jaime didn’t do it because when Cat confronted him he readily admitted pushing Bran off the tower. There was no reason to hide an additional attempt. Cersei had no reason to keep it from her brother since he was already guilty. Littlefinger attempted to frame Tyrion with it. He’s the only living character it could be I think. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/305 "2017-08-09T03:47:58Z")
You may be right. It could be that Littlefinger suggested it to Joffrey, in his sly way, or arranged for it himself as a way to later curry favor with Jaime and Cersei for helping cover up their… indiscretion. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/306 "2017-08-09T03:51:23Z")
Also, remember it was Littlefinger who started the entire series by having Lysa Arryn kill her husband. We learned that right before he pushes her through the Moon Door. So, who knows why Jon Arryn was killed, but it was at the behest of Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/307 "2017-08-09T04:18:51Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > Was I the only one that thought Jon was leading Dany into the cave to show her more dragon eggs? I’m thinking we will see more dragon eggs before the end of the series. Speaking of dragon eggs; I know Daenerys named all 3 dragons after men, but do we actually know if they’re all males or if at least of the them is female? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/308 "2017-08-09T04:19:27Z")
> [@ryan](#): > > An argument could be made that he’s only seeing what the mad king intended to happen, as we’re only seeing the wildfire detonating in the tunnels and not the actual destruction of the Sept (which, granted, had not been shown on screen at that point and would have been a HUGE spoiler). > > As for your second point, we see _A_ dragon flying over King’s Landing and it appears to have dark scales. Could be Drogon but it could be just as easily be another dragon. Possibly Balerion the Black Dread himself? It’s the [exact same shot](https://youtu.be/iP-sZanBikA?t=105) as the one [just after Lancel sees the barrels explode](https://youtu.be/_KbvDvc-WFE?t=442). As for not being Drogon, maybe, but notice the [next shot](https://youtu.be/iP-sZanBikA?t=64) is of baby Drogon on Dany’s shoulder. Or maybe they just wanted a cool montage of images, I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/309 "2017-08-09T05:13:16Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > GOT fans have shown they can wait a loooong time for their next fix. It is known. You mean ASoIaF fans have shown that. GoT fans, not as much (even though this season debut was a little more than a year after the last one). ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/310 "2017-08-09T07:10:12Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Oh, and for those confused about Jon’s response to Theon: Even if he knows his brothers are alive, Theon still snuck his Ironmen into Winterfell and took it over. Right, and he killed Ser Rodrick, the Stark master-at-arms who taught Jon (and Theon himself) how to fight. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/311 "2017-08-09T07:29:25Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Just a bit tired of the goodness of Daenery’s and the noble savage Dothraki. Any other foreign army of the Dothraki ilk would be committing allsorts of unspeakable acts on the population of Westeros. Not sure why you specify _foreign_. It’s been established in the show that both the Dothraki and Westerosi armies routinely commit rape. Remember the Dothraki warrior who challenged Drogo in season 1 because he was pissed that Daenerys didn’t want them raping the people they conquered? And when Cersei was warning the women in the castle that if Stannis won the battle they’d all “be in for a bit of a rape”? There are plenty of justifiable criticisms of Game of Thrones, but I don’t think “not enough rape” is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/312 "2017-08-09T09:07:33Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > It’s already bad storytelling. They brought up the subject again because of reasons that hopefully will pan out but it seems like the subject was dropped a while ago more because of time and editing constraints than anything. > > Since it happened so long ago it’s hard for me to separate the facts about the dagger that were in the book and in the show. They might be twisted together in my head so I won’t bring all that up. From what I know was in the show we rule out Tyrion. There was no reason the assassin needed a fancy blade to kill. It’s only purpose was to point a finger at someone. Jaime didn’t do it because when Cat confronted him he readily admitted pushing Bran off the tower. There was no reason to hide an additional attempt. Cersei had no reason to keep it from her brother since he was already guilty. Littlefinger attempted to frame Tyrion with it. He’s the only living character it could be I think. Ok, be it the show or things which don’t exist, Tyrion was trying to work out who did it. Jamie was out, he had already tried to kill him and didn’t attempt second but would have freely admitted it. Cersei was the prime suspect at one point, but she dismissed it to Tyrion when she would easily admit it. He decided no. It wasn’t Tyrion anyway. Others with knowledge of Tyrion knew it, because Littlefinger said it was won from LF by Tyrion by betting against Jamie on a joust, and Tyrion is known to never bet against his brother. Littlefinger didn’t have access to the cache of weapons the dagger came from, which was Roberts private cache. Robert had no wish to do it, but did say the crippled boy might as well be dead. Joffrey had access to the cache, and the wish to impress his father, so is the most likely suspect. It could be a little more complicated, such as Joffrey doing it on the back of Littlefingers suggestion. Basically the dagger itself makes it limited possibilities. Being stupid enough to use that dagger seems to be in the Joffrey domain too/ ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/313 "2017-08-09T11:46:03Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Theon’s betrayal of the Starks was unconscionable in their eyes. They never thought of him as a prisoner. Then they thought wrong. He was a prisoner. However, he voluntarily pledged himself to Rob, so it was a betrayal. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/314 "2017-08-09T14:57:10Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Yeah, back then when Robert was still alive, they were still trying very hard to keep it secret. Jon Arryn was apparently the first to discover it, because when Ned confronts Cersei he says, “I know the truth Jon Arryn died for.” And then he threatened to tell Robert next, which is what sparked the whole coup & his subsequent decapitation. Wait, are you sure Jon knew about the incest? He knew that Robert wasn’t the father (and hence that Cersei was guilty of high treason, which was a secret worth killing for) because all Robert’s bastard sons had black hair, but it’s quite a leap from that to knowing that Jaime was the father. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/315 "2017-08-09T15:10:56Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Imagine how much more unprepared the Lannister forces would have been if the Dothraki didn’t whoop it up, announcing their approach from at least a mile away. Yeah, that was a minor annoyance to me. Not the whooping so much - the psychological impact of that against an infantry largely consisting of poorly trained rabble more than makes up for the extra few seconds of warning — but the galloping at full speed from miles away. In my experience with Mongol-ish hordes, you don’t start galloping until the enemy is in sight, so your horses aren’t exhausted before the battle even begins. Another minor annoyance was Dany being so accommodating in helping Bronn line up his shots. When she saw the first giant quarrel barely miss her, it seems like she would have noted the scorpion’s location, and not flown directly over it a second time. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/316 "2017-08-09T15:15:08Z")
I think the Dothraki in that sequence were quite useful - prior to them being heard the Lannister forces were dispersed. By announcing their presence they formed in nice little rows like ants. It would have been more strategic for the Dothraki to just stop out of arrow range as the Lannisters were lined up, and have Dany just torch everything, but that would be out of character for the Dothraki. I really do wonder about the range of the dragon fire. Dany should just fly at a high enough altitude that the ballista is no threat, and then just rain fire on everything. That’d probably be roll credits then. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/317 "2017-08-09T15:23:13Z")
> [@Shawn1767](#): > > Also, remember it was Littlefinger who started the entire series by having Lysa Arryn kill her husband. We learned that right before he pushes her through the Moon Door. So, who knows why Jon Arryn was killed, but it was at the behest of Littlefinger. The reason was to set the Starks and Baratheon’s against the Lannisters. Jon Arryn was killed by his wife at the order of Littlefinger. Littlefinger knew that Arryn was investigating Robert’s bastards and had likely found out Cersei’s secret. He killed Arryn and sent a raven to Kat blaming Cersei. By framing Cersei he put the Eddard and the king into a path to conflict with the Lannister’s since both were raised by Arryn. This would also likely bring Kat to King’s Landing. He knew that as soon as Eddard knew he would tell Robert and Cersei and Jaime would be arrested leading Tywin to rebel. He tried to get Eddard to seize power but when he refused he backed Cersei, knowing the Baratheons and likely Stark’s would rebel. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/318 "2017-08-09T15:27:40Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Ok, be it the show or things which don’t exist, Tyrion was trying to work out who did it. > > Jamie was out, he had already tried to kill him and didn’t attempt second but would have freely admitted it. > > Cersei was the prime suspect at one point, but she dismissed it to Tyrion when she would easily admit it. He decided no. > > It wasn’t Tyrion anyway. Others with knowledge of Tyrion knew it, because Littlefinger said it was won from LF by Tyrion by betting against Jamie on a joust, and Tyrion is known to never bet against his brother. > > Littlefinger didn’t have access to the cache of weapons the dagger came from, which was Roberts private cache. > > Robert had no wish to do it, but did say the crippled boy might as well be dead. > > Joffrey had access to the cache, and the wish to impress his father, so is the most likely suspect. > > It could be a little more complicated, such as Joffrey doing it on the back of Littlefingers suggestion. > > Basically the dagger itself makes it limited possibilities. Being stupid enough to use that dagger seems to be in the Joffrey domain too/ Joffrey had no motive and was not smart enough to do it. The two suspects are Jaime/Cersei who needed Bron dead so he couldn’t tell Robert about them, or Littlefinger who was trying to frame the Lannisters to incite the civil war. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/319 "2017-08-09T15:39:48Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Not sure why you specify _foreign_. It’s been established in the show that both the Dothraki and Westerosi armies routinely commit rape. Remember the Dothraki warrior who challenged Drogo in season 1 because he was pissed that Daenerys didn’t want them raping the people they conquered? And when Cersei was warning the women in the castle that if Stannis won the battle they’d all “be in for a bit of a rape”? > > There are plenty of justifiable criticisms of Game of Thrones, but I don’t think “not enough rape” is one of them. If there is any candidate for least rapey army, it’s Stannis’. Tywin wouldn’t care unless they got caught, the Starks would send rapists to the wall, but Stannis would instantly hang them. Or burn. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > Another minor annoyance was Dany being so accommodating in helping Bronn line up his shots. When she saw the first giant quarrel barely miss her, it seems like she would have noted the scorpion’s location, and not flown directly over it a second time. Ot at least dive bomb it. I doubt that thing could shoot UP. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/320 "2017-08-09T16:00:53Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Joffrey had no motive and was not smart enough to do it. > The two suspects are Jaime/Cersei who needed Bron dead so he couldn’t tell Robert about them, or Littlefinger who was trying to frame the Lannisters to incite the civil war. Joffrey had a motive to make his father proud of him in how own cruel way, but was too stupid to not recognise the dagger as a giveaway. Littlefinger did not have access to the dagger. Cersei and Jamie both would freely admit it, Jamie to Catelyn when captured, and Cersei to Jamie when asked about it. It is quite likely the one of Cersei, Joffrey or Littlefinger paid Ser Mandon Moore to try and kill Tyrion. I’m unsure if that is ever resolved. But it’s pretty much Joffrey who was stupid enough to attempt the murder. Not a Jon Snow is a Targ theory, it’s pretty much the answer. Why the dagger has reappeared in the series is another matter. It needs to drive a plot. Be it Arya putting it into Littlefinger (though Bran doesn’t seem to be freely passing on all this information he has, and I don’t think Arya blames him enough for anything else) or just a cheap way to get a whitewalker killing weapon into her hands in the face of an impending White Walkers attack. Things are going a bit too well for the Starks at the moment, so I’d say the last one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=17)