# Game of Thrones 7.04 "The Spoils of War" 8/6/2017 \[Show discussion only\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 6, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955 "2017-08-06T22:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/321 "2017-08-09T16:03:11Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > If there is any candidate for least rapey army, it’s Stannis’. Tywin wouldn’t care unless they got caught, the Starks would send rapists to the wall, but Stannis would instantly hang them. Or burn. > > Ot at least dive bomb it. I doubt that thing could shoot UP. “Serpentine! Serpentine!” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/322 "2017-08-09T16:08:00Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > “Serpentine! Serpentine!” :: golf clap :: And again, everyone, it’s “Jaime.” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/323 "2017-08-09T16:27:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > “Serpentine! Serpentine!” Special Guest Stars Peter Falk as Jon Snow and Alan Arkin as Rickon Stark. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/324 "2017-08-09T16:31:58Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > If there is any candidate for least rapey army, it’s Stannis’. Tywin wouldn’t care unless they got caught, the Starks would send rapists to the wall, but Stannis would instantly hang them. Or burn. I really don’t see any reason to assume that, just because he was a generally conservative disciplinarian. That’s an accepted part of their culture, and I don’t remember him ever specifically condemning it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/325 "2017-08-09T16:51:20Z")
I don’t see any of the Westorosi Lords permitting or condoning rape TBH. An Army which starts rape and plunder loses discipline and order and an Army without either is no longer an Army at all: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/326 "2017-08-09T17:15:13Z")
That’s an interesting theory but in real life it’s not at all true. Rape and pillage were absolutely standard for armies thorughout most of the history of organized warfare. An army prior to the invention of modern logistical tools, especially railways, was much more like a plague of locusts than the professional, disciplined armies we have today; carrying enough supply to feed and maintain an army was difficult, so they’d eat the land out as they went. Rape was quite commonplace when operating in enemy lands; even Roman armies would routinely rape and enslave women as they went. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/327 "2017-08-09T17:32:21Z")
The Red Army was pretty rapey in 1945, and that didn’t prevent them from defeating the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/328 "2017-08-09T17:43:19Z")
I highly doubt Jamey was behind the attempt on Bran. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/329 "2017-08-09T17:47:17Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Joffrey had a motive to make his father proud of him in how own cruel way, but was too stupid to not recognise the dagger as a giveaway. > > Littlefinger did not have access to the dagger. > > Cersei and Jamie both would freely admit it, Jamie to Catelyn when captured, and Cersei to Jamie when asked about it. > > It is quite likely the one of Cersei, Joffrey or Littlefinger paid Ser Mandon Moore to try and kill Tyrion. I’m unsure if that is ever resolved. > > But it’s pretty much Joffrey who was stupid enough to attempt the murder. Not a Jon Snow is a Targ theory, it’s pretty much the answer. > > Why the dagger has reappeared in the series is another matter. It needs to drive a plot. Be it Arya putting it into Littlefinger (though Bran doesn’t seem to be freely passing on all this information he has, and I don’t think Arya blames him enough for anything else) or just a cheap way to get a whitewalker killing weapon into her hands in the face of an impending White Walkers attack. > > Things are going a bit too well for the Starks at the moment, so I’d say the last one. I agree with this analysis that Joffrey was behind the attempt and that Littlefinger took advantage of it after the fact. I’m not sure how much time passed between Bran’s fall and the attempt, but it doesn’t seem like enough for Littlefinger to have intitiated the attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/330 "2017-08-09T17:50:33Z")
I really don’t see how anybody could think Joffrey could be behind the attempt on Bran’s life. Not only doesn’t he have the necessary planning skills or cunning, he couldn’t have resisted the urge to brag about it. ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/331 "2017-08-09T17:50:58Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > If there is any candidate for least rapey army, it’s Stannis’. I’m pretty sure that Daenarys’s Unsullied would dispute that. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/332 "2017-08-09T18:01:59Z")
I hope the show puts some serious thought into dragon versus scorpion tactics in the undoubtedly bigger battles that will follow. You have multiple scorpions positioned to work together to defend against all lines of attack. On the other side you have Dothraki cavalry groups specially tasked with attacking and taking out the scorpions. It would make for a terrific RTS game which will probably happen some time at least in a mod. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/333 "2017-08-09T18:07:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s an interesting theory but in real life it’s not at all true. Rape and pillage were absolutely standard for armies thorughout most of the history of organized warfare. > > An army prior to the invention of modern logistical tools, especially railways, was much more like a plague of locusts than the professional, disciplined armies we have today; carrying enough supply to feed and maintain an army was difficult, so they’d eat the land out as they went. Rape was quite commonplace when operating in enemy lands; even Roman armies would routinely rape and enslave women as they went. There is a big difference between soldiers raping and pillaging, which happened throughout history and even happens today sometimes, and Commanders having a policy of wantonly permitting or condoning rape and pillage which happened a lot less indeed it was noteworthy when it did. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/334 "2017-08-09T18:29:57Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I hope the show puts some serious thought into dragon versus scorpion tactics in the undoubtedly bigger battles that will follow. You have multiple scorpions positioned to work together to defend against all lines of attack. On the other side you have Dothraki cavalry groups specially tasked with attacking and taking out the scorpions. It would make for a terrific RTS game which will probably happen some time at least in a mod. I’m thinking hitting a dragon in flight is going to be damned difficult, assuming they’ve learned to juke a little: > [@Squadron Leader Skipper](#): > > How many time have I told you - never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in a combat area! It’s apparently hard enough to hit an airplane with a machine gun when you can use tracer rounds to attempt to get your lead right. A one-shot scorpion is going to take a natural D20 (or more likely D99) to get a hit if it isn’t flying straight at you _ **not** _ belching fire. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/335 "2017-08-09T18:42:06Z")
Always remember: pillage first, _then_ burn. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > …And again, everyone, it’s “Jaime.” > [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I highly doubt Jamey was behind the attempt on Bran. Hmm. Should I use my powers of invisibility for good, or evil? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/336 "2017-08-09T18:54:54Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Anyone know why no one attacks the Iron Bank? I’d imagine there’s good reason, but it looks like they hold every’s purse string. Maybe they could pull a Philip the IV move on the templars type scenario. Even in a world of dragons and ice zombies the banks still rule the world. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/337 "2017-08-09T19:01:38Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You may be right. It could be that Littlefinger suggested it to Joffrey, in his sly way, or arranged for it himself as a way to later curry favor with Jaime and Cersei for helping cover up their… indiscretion. Littlefinger was no where near Winterfell at the time. It’s not something he could have arranged by raven, and getting a message there by courier would have taken many weeks. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > . . . > In my experience with Mongol-ish hordes, you don’t start galloping until the enemy is in sight, so your horses aren’t exhausted before the battle even begins. > > Another minor annoyance was Dany being so accommodating in helping Bronn line up his shots. When she saw the first giant quarrel barely miss her, it seems like she would have noted the scorpion’s location, and not flown directly over it a second time. Agreed about the galloping too soon. Although I would expect Dothraki horses to be in exceptional shape for long-distance galloping. Drogon is huge. He is bulky and extremely powerful, but far from streamlined or aerodynamic. He can’t turn on a dime. He can’t even stow his landing gear! LOL! She was saying “Dracarys!!” as the bolt loosed, so I think she expected to destroy it before they could reload. > [@Bone](#): > > I think the Dothraki in that sequence were quite useful - prior to them being heard the Lannister forces were dispersed. By announcing their presence they formed in nice little rows like ants. It would have been more strategic for the Dothraki to just stop out of arrow range as the Lannisters were lined up, and have Dany just torch everything, but that would be out of character for the Dothraki. > > I really do wonder about the range of the dragon fire. Dany should just fly at a high enough altitude that the ballista is no threat, and then just rain fire on everything. That’d probably be roll credits then. I once had [one of these](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bd/05/96/bd0596d87935101d0b6e6ee558595f64.jpg), meant for burning away weeds in the yard. I tried to use it to de-ice the front walk come Winter, but no luck. It turns out that heat moves rather stubbornly UP, no matter how close you get it to the thing you want to heat. Street performers who “spit fire” actually squirt vodka from their mouths and that is what burns in the air as it streams forward. So I presume the dragons must be doing something similar - spitting a flammable venom (ammonia based?) and lighting it with a sparking flint tooth or something. Bottom line, the closer you are to horizontal to the target the more impact you are going to have. And whatever it is that they spit has to get there before it burns out. > [@RickJay](#): > > That’s an interesting theory but in real life it’s not at all true. Rape and pillage were absolutely standard for armies thorughout most of the history of organized warfare. > > An army prior to the invention of modern logistical tools, especially railways, was much more like a plague of locusts than the professional, disciplined armies we have today; carrying enough supply to feed and maintain an army was difficult, so they’d eat the land out as they went. Rape was quite commonplace when operating in enemy lands; even Roman armies would routinely rape and enslave women as they went. I’d have to disagree with your use of the past tense here. Granted, Korea and Vietnam weren’t yesterday, but there thousands of French and American children born during and a few months after each. Some were the result of actual romances, but those are the minority. Sad to say, pillaging is much more carefully monitored and punished. But that’s a different thread, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/338 "2017-08-09T19:17:40Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > If there is any candidate for least rapey army, it’s Stannis’. Tywin wouldn’t care unless they got caught, the Starks would send rapists to the wall, but Stannis would instantly hang them. Or burn. Really? Because during the Battle of the Blackwater, Cercei seemed pretty certain they were all in for a good rapein’ if the Red Keep was breached. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/339 "2017-08-09T19:38:38Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I really don’t see how anybody could think Joffrey could be behind the attempt on Bran’s life. Not only doesn’t he have the necessary planning skills or cunning, he couldn’t have resisted the urge to brag about it. Joffrey and Cersei are really the only possible suspects. Jaime would not hire an assassin. He does his own killing and is far too proud. Cersei is the most logical, but it does seem out of character for her not to just admit it later on. But she has told plenty of nonsensical lies, so who knows. Joffrey could have kept quiet about it after seeing his father’s reaction to the assassination attempt. ---
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/340 "2017-08-09T19:47:26Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Drogon is huge. He is bulky and extremely powerful, but far from streamlined or aerodynamic. He can’t turn on a dime. He can’t even stow his landing gear! LOL! I (just today) re-watched the battle a couple of times. When Drogon drops down low over the water, and was in ground effect, and causing a wake, was just awesome, in every sense. I also finally noticed that none of the (few) supply wagons Dany and Drogon torched had horses hitched to them, or were moving. That would make them immediate military targets as a place to remove potential rallying points for Lannister heavy infantry to fight the Dothraki light cavalry. Plus, they were one of the only targets that wasn’t a mix of both armies, at that point. And I give many bonus points to the the production team, who (even if it was an accident) FINALLY showed a road without a green bit of grass in what should be the most traveled part of the road in a horse-powered economy–the bloody center, where all the horses go. For those who haven’t used harnessed horses, or thought about it–the ruts are way out at the wagon wheels, and cause some wear. The most intense wear, however, is where the horses are walking, right down the center of the road. It is progress, and I am happy. Even if the farms are always magical unseen fields. And unseen farmers. \*-) Great episode, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=18)