# Game of Thrones 7.04 "The Spoils of War" 8/6/2017 \[Show discussion only\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 6, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955 "2017-08-06T22:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Art\_Rock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/art_rock/32/525_2.png) [@Art\_Rock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Art_Rock)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/341 "2017-08-09T20:02:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really? Because during the Battle of the Blackwater, Cercei seemed pretty certain they were all in for a good rapein’ if the Red Keep was breached. Wasn’t that projecting what she knows the Lannister army would do? After all, the Battle of the Blackwater was the first time Stannis’ army was really at work, so there had been no prior experience. ---
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/342 "2017-08-09T20:05:25Z")
(missed edit) in re the road–obviously, the wheels will carry the weight and do the most damage over time to the road. In the fall, at harvest time, I would expect the center grass to have been churned into oblivion by horse traffic over the summer. Which was as shown. So I was, in a minuscule way, happy to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/343 "2017-08-09T20:32:28Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Basically the only logical person who could have done it was Joffrey, being the only one with access to dagger which was in Roberts possession. It seemed beyond Cersei’s abilities at the time… The dagger was not in Roberts possession, according to Littlefinger it was in Tyrions. It was either Cersie/Jamie or Littlefinger who ordered the assassination. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/344 "2017-08-09T20:43:23Z")
I can’t see Joffrey being responsible for the attempt on Bran’s life. It seems too subtle a stratagem for him. But at the same time, it’s been several years since that occurred. I really doubt the show will revisit the event to resolve who was responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/345 "2017-08-09T20:46:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But at the same time, it’s been several years since that occurred. I really doubt the show will revisit the event to resolve who was responsible. I mean it might, considering they are revisiting the dagger, and Bran now basically has Knowledge of All Things. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/346 "2017-08-09T20:46:38Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > The dagger was not in Roberts possession, according to Littlefinger it was in Tyrions. It was either Cersie/Jamie or Littlefinger who ordered the assassination. None of them are dumb enough to use a dagger that would draw so much suspicion. A regular weapon would have made sense for a non idiotic plotter. Which is why I think Joffrey makes the most sense. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/347 "2017-08-09T20:52:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > None of them are dumb enough to use a dagger that would draw so much suspicion. A regular weapon would have made sense for a non idiotic plotter. Which is why I think Joffrey makes the most sense. Other than the fact that Joffrey had literally no reason to do this at all? He was still prince then, he had no idea that his parents were Mom and Uncle/dad at this point and no idea that Bran had caught them in the act…this is a silly theory imho. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/348 "2017-08-09T20:59:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > None of them are dumb enough to use a dagger that would draw so much suspicion. A regular weapon would have made sense for a non idiotic plotter. Which is why I think Joffrey makes the most sense. Joffrey wasn’t even in Winterfell at the time. Bran’s assassination attempt took place well after Robert & Ned and their hosts had departed south for King’s Landing. And it’s ridiculous to even think that Joffrey was involved at all – he had no motivation to do so, and even if he did, no way would he try and kill his father’s best friend’s son. Suspecting Joffrey is just plain silly. Also, we have to consider that the only reason to use such a rare, expensive dagger would be to pin the blame on the dagger’s owner – i.e., Tyrion. Which means that the mastermind, whoever he/she is, must have _wanted_ the attempt to fail, or at least planned for the assassin to get caught afterwards. Which, again, suggests Littlefinger. Jaime/Cersei wouldn’t care about who gets blamed, they would only want Bran dead so he couldn’t report what he’d witnessed. Of course, the main hole in the Littlefinger theory is how he arranged the whole thing while back in King’s Landing. He could have sent coded instructions via raven (which would explain his nervous double-take a few episodes ago, when he learned that Winterfell’s Maester still had copies of all raven messages) but getting the dagger north is a trickier one to explain. All we know for certain is that the writers re-introduced the dagger for a reason, so we haven’t heard the last of this particular plot point. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/349 "2017-08-09T21:02:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Rape and pillage were absolutely standard for armies thorughout most of the history of organized warfare. > > An army prior to the invention of modern logistical tools, especially railways, was much more like a plague of locusts than the professional, disciplined armies we have today; carrying enough supply to feed and maintain an army was difficult, so they’d eat the land out as they went. Rape was quite commonplace when operating in enemy lands; even Roman armies would routinely rape and enslave women as they went. Whenever this topic comes up I can’t help but think of the [opening scene to _Erik the Viking:_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGrDHI0orKE) “Have you done this sort of thing before?” “Me? Of course! I’ve been looting and pillaging up and down the coast.” “Looting and pillaging, eh?” “Yes.” “What about the raping?” “Shut up.” “It’s obvious you haven’t raped anyone in your life.” “Shut up!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/350 "2017-08-09T21:18:26Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I mean it might, considering they are revisiting the dagger, and Bran now basically has Knowledge of All Things. I think it’ll be more to do with the dagger itself. We’ve seen a [picture of it](http://imgur.com/a/NAb19) in Sam’s books as well as devoting time this episode to it. Weirdly the text in the book is talking about dragonglass, though we know the dagger is Valyrian Steel. My guess - the dagger will somehow be instrumental in relearning the secret of how to forge new Valyrian Steel and the process will involve dragonglass. ETA; scratch that, the text is talking about the hilt of the dagger. Better guess, we’ll learn it was LF who ordered the hit to stir more shit between Stark and Lannister. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/351 "2017-08-09T21:22:21Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Other than the fact that Joffrey had literally no reason to do this at all? He was still prince then, he had no idea that his parents were Mom and Uncle/dad at this point and no idea that Bran had caught them in the act…this is a silly theory imho. Joffrey was a disturbed child who worshiped his (step)dad. And King Robert thought cripples were better off dead than left to struggle with their disability the rest of their lives. It makes more sense to me than any other theory. Littlefinger couldn’t have done it, he was over a thousand miles away. Jamie and Cersei had the motive, but Jamie would have done it himself if he did it at all, and Cersei wouldn’t have been so stupid as to use a Valyrian steel dagger with a jewel encrusted hilt. It’s classic GRRM misdirection. The whole first book, I mean season, we’re led to think Bran’s assassination attempt was part of some complex political scheme involving Littlefinger, various Lannisters and the Royal Court, when in reality it was a mentally ill child trying to impress his dad. Littlefinger used it to his advantage, like he does with every social instability, but it wasn’t his idea. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/352 "2017-08-09T22:20:17Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Joffrey was a disturbed child who worshiped his (step)dad. Did he? It’s been a while since I’ve seen the first 2 seasons, but it seemed to me like he thought that much about his father. He chopped off that guys tongue for joking about his death, but that’s just Joffrey. ---
**Author:** ![arles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71c47a/32.png) [@arles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arles)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/353 "2017-08-10T01:56:02Z")
Maybe who attempted to murder Bran is not important. I think what is important is that the blade is back into play. There have been many references to Valyrian Steel so maybe it will play a part in the war with the White Walkers. How many Valyrian blades are there? Jon has one that he got at the wall, Jaime and Brienne each have one that came from Ned’s blade, Sam has one that he took from his father’s house, and now Arya has the blade from Bran. Are there others? I can see that the Valyrian Steel weapons are going into the hands of the key killers who will fight against the White Walkers. Also, I would like to go on record with my WAG that the upcoming war is all the fault of Bran. It was only after the Night King touched Bran in his vision that the magic protecting the previous Three-Eyed Raven was broken. And I am thinking that once Bran crossed the Wall he broke the magic that was protecting the Wall from the non-living. And now the Night King can cross since the magic no longer holds. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/354 "2017-08-10T02:35:21Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It makes more sense to me than any other theory. Littlefinger couldn’t have done it, he was over a thousand miles away. Jamie and Cersei had the motive, but Jamie would have done it himself if he did it at all, and Cersei wouldn’t have been so stupid as to use a Valyrian steel dagger with a jewel encrusted hilt. NOBODY would have been so stupid as to give a priceless dagger to some riffraff assassin, so anyone ruling out X because he/she is too smart, is missing the point. Hired assassins generally have their own knives, and there are like ten Valyrian steel blades in the world. It would be like, “Throw a pebble over their heads to make them look the wrong way. No wait, throw this Fabergé egg instead.” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/355 "2017-08-10T02:44:03Z")
No one ever lost a bet overestimating the ego and stupidity of Joffrey. Quite the opposite, people lost their heads relying on rationale behavior from that perverted psychopath. Re-watching On Demand, had a brief flash of Arya’s training sequence which featured primarily water dancer fighting skills and ending with her responding to Brienne’s question of who taught you that with “No One”, seems like something of a nod to the Syrio = Jaqen fans. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/356 "2017-08-10T02:59:53Z")
I’m not trying to be the thread police, but I have to ask… > [@Shawn1767](#): > > Also, remember it was Littlefinger who started the entire series by having Lysa Arryn kill her husband. We learned that right before he pushes her through the Moon Door. So, who knows why Jon Arryn was killed, but it was at the behest of Littlefinger. Are any details of Jon Arryn’s death known within the show? > [@puddleglum](#): > > The reason was to set the Starks and Baratheon’s against the Lannisters. > Jon Arryn was killed by his wife at the order of Littlefinger. Littlefinger knew that Arryn was investigating Robert’s bastards and had likely found out Cersei’s secret. He killed Arryn and sent a raven to Kat blaming Cersei. By framing Cersei he put the Eddard and the king into a path to conflict with the Lannister’s since both were raised by Arryn. This would also likely bring Kat to King’s Landing. He knew that as soon as Eddard knew he would tell Robert and Cersei and Jaime would be arrested leading Tywin to rebel. He tried to get Eddard to seize power but when he refused he backed Cersei, knowing the Baratheons and likely Stark’s would rebel. Does any of this come from the show? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/357 "2017-08-10T03:06:35Z")
Yeah, all of that is established. It’s actually a pretty huge reveal - that Littlefinger was deliberately behind the conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks. Lysa poisoned her husband so that she could marry Littlefinger, and then told her sister that it was the Lannisters that killed him. She says this when he returns to the Eyrie right before he murders her. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/358 "2017-08-10T03:07:34Z")
What I said about Lysa Arryn and Littlefinger was totally from the show because I haven’t read the books. But when they are arguing by the Moon Door, she says something to the effect “I did what you told me, I killed Jon.” and shortly after, Littlefinger pushes her through the Moon Door. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/359 "2017-08-10T03:13:47Z")
Yes the show made it very clear a few seasons back Littlefinger started this entire mess. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/360 "2017-08-10T04:18:53Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Yes the show made it very clear a few seasons back Littlefinger started this entire mess. …and kept it messy whenever things got too stable. This is often glossed over, and really turned this show into my all-time 2nd favorite, after Northern Exposure. You think that the whole show is about power hungry families with loads of resources vying for power, and then learn that the creepy brothel owner is pulling all the strings. Greatest twist in television history. The show even plays with us by letting us think, temporarily, that Littlefinger has a heart and truly loves Catelyn, until we later learn that she was just another pawn in his game. You have to admire him to some extent. He lives in a world where the powerful routinely kill each other for more power. He’s simply playing by their rules. He is the only major character who elevated himself from obscurity to power, without the aid of any birthright. I’m so glad that I didn’t read the books. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=19)