# Game of Thrones 7.04 "The Spoils of War" 8/6/2017 \[Show discussion only\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 6, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955 "2017-08-06T22:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/421 "2017-08-11T20:24:46Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Given how difficult it is to make sense of somebody giving the Valyrian steel dagger to the assassin, I wonder if some weird three-eyed raven thing is going on, along the lines of the paradoxical “hold the door” being transmitted back through time to the young Hodor. Could Bran himself have influenced events in his past in order to get the dagger into Arya’s hands today? > > But I’m not sure how that relates to the ensuing chaos caused by the assassination attempt, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that this is a result that the three-eyed raven might have sought. I’ve briefly entertained the thought, as well. If I want to try to make sense of it, I can imagine that the alternative history where Bran is not a target for assassination is a world where the chaos sewn by Littlefinger is just enough to start low-level, slow-burning wars and Littlefinger is able to covertly manipulate events to his own end such that all of the five Kingdoms are weakened and Littlefinger ascends to the throne, only to have all of Westeros destroyed by the White Walker army. Bran, somehow seeing that this future can’t be prevented with less chaos as Littlefinger is always able to manipulate things his way, instead opts to create a more chaotic situation, one too chaotic for Littlefinger to control with his machinations. So Bran manipulates the past to arrange his own failed assassination that leads to more chaos, a quicker, more intense war for the throne emerges that Littlefinger struggles to take control of, and eventually the kingdom unites in time to fend off the White Walker army. But that’s all massive fan-wanking. While it fits into the Branhattan idea, it’s way out there in highly-speculative-land. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/422 "2017-08-11T20:25:45Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Point being if child murder was a big no no for Robert, at the very least we could expect some sort of remonstration for the man who physically did the deed, Gregor, which he didn’t. Agreed that would be the right thing to do, but I’m not volunteering for the duty. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/423 "2017-08-11T20:39:37Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > Agreed that would be the right thing to do, but I’m not volunteering for the duty. Going way off on a tangent here, but I think Robert Baratheon in his prime would be one of the few warriors in Westeros who would be a match for The Mountain one on one. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/424 "2017-08-11T21:01:35Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Going way off on a tangent here, but I think Robert Baratheon in his prime would be one of the few warriors in Westeros who would be a match for The Mountain one on one. He could match the brute force, and probably has greater skill. Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy are in the conversation, and a non-taunting Oberyn Martell. Two-handed Jaime perhaps. Ned would only accept that fight out of necessity, and would have Howland Reed sneak up behind him. Maybe we’ll see if we can add Arya to the list… though I expect she will team up with the Hound for that fight. One on one on no-one. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/425 "2017-08-11T21:37:48Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > My guess is Littlefinger through an intermediary hired some chucklehead and told him _“I’ll give you a bunch of gold plus this totally sweet dagger if you off a crippled child, just set a fire as a distraction, job done. There’ll definitely not be any direwolves there or anything!”_ > > Then LF knows the distinctive dagger would fall into Stark hands, he tells them it’s Tyrion’s, and the rest is history. The fact that Cat almost died during Bran’s assassination attempt is a significant point against the “Littlefinger planned it” theory. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/426 "2017-08-11T21:40:04Z")
Littlefinger certainly couldn’t have known who would be in the room when the attempt was made, so the fact that Catelyn was in danger during it doesn’t necessarily imply that he wasn’t responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/427 "2017-08-11T21:44:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The fact that Cat almost died during Bran’s assassination attempt is a significant point against the “Littlefinger planned it” theory. She wasn’t supposed to be there, according to the assassin. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/428 "2017-08-11T21:51:22Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > She wasn’t supposed to be there, according to the assassin. That also fails the sniff test. She was a mother grieving over her comatose son, for goodness sake, it’s not a stretch of the imagination to guess she might be there. Littlefinger wouldn’t be so stupid as to assume she couldn’t _possibly_ be there, and would have made sure that if she _were_ there, the plan was either aborted, or accomplished without hurting her. ETA: Though I guess it’s possible he said “don’t hurt her _too_ much” and it actually went off as planned. He claimed to love her, but he certainly wasn’t beyond hurting her a little, considering what he did to Ned. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/429 "2017-08-11T21:54:16Z")
I thought someone said upthread that the assassination attempt was independent of Bran’s defenestration, and that Littlefinger, assuming he was responsible, was not aware that Bran had been injured already. (It’s been too long since I saw the episode for me to remember the exact chain of events.) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/430 "2017-08-11T21:54:41Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > I’ve briefly entertained the thought, as well. If I want to try to make sense of it, I can imagine that the alternative history where Bran is not a target for assassination is a world where the chaos sewn by Littlefinger is just enough to start low-level, slow-burning wars and Littlefinger is able to covertly manipulate events to his own end such that all of the five Kingdoms are weakened and Littlefinger ascends to the throne, only to have all of Westeros destroyed by the White Walker army. Bran, somehow seeing that this future can’t be prevented with less chaos as Littlefinger is always able to manipulate things his way, instead opts to create a more chaotic situation, one too chaotic for Littlefinger to control with his machinations. So Bran manipulates the past to arrange his own failed assassination that leads to more chaos, a quicker, more intense war for the throne emerges that Littlefinger struggles to take control of, and eventually the kingdom unites in time to fend off the White Walker army. > > But that’s all massive fan-wanking. While it fits into the Branhattan idea, it’s way out there in highly-speculative-land. If something like that ends up being true it will be AWESOME. I’m skeptical, but I’d love one more absolutely massive twist that still fits well into everything we’ve observed so far. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/431 "2017-08-11T22:06:30Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought someone said upthread that the assassination attempt was independent of Bran’s defenestration, and that Littlefinger, assuming he was responsible, was not aware that Bran had been injured already. > > (It’s been too long since I saw the episode for me to remember the exact chain of events.) It’s unclear how much time passes between the fall and the attempt, but it seemed like it was a while. I figure the trip back would have been delayed, so a raven most likely would have been sent explaining why the King would be slow to return. Also, at the time, Littlefinger and Varys worked together on the small council. When Cat went to King’s Landing, they already knew she was coming and about the dagger. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/432 "2017-08-11T22:09:08Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > That also fails the sniff test. She was a mother grieving over her comatose son, for goodness sake, it’s not a stretch of the imagination to guess she might be there. Littlefinger wouldn’t be so stupid as to assume she couldn’t _possibly_ be there, and would have made sure that if she _were_ there, the plan was either aborted, or accomplished without hurting her. > > ETA: Though I guess it’s possible he said “don’t hurt her _too_ much” and it actually went off as planned. He claimed to love her, but he certainly wasn’t beyond hurting her a little, considering what he did to Ned. It would explain why an assassin armed with a Valyrian steel dagger struggles to deal with an unarmed woman, maybe he had orders to that effect. Or, if Littlefinger made sure to hire an incompetent assassin to get direwolf’d, Cat’s presence was unforeseen by LF and the assassin not dealing with her is due to aforementioned incompetence. For a character that appears for like a minute in the first season and isn’t even named, who knew he’d become a topic of discussion 7 seasons in? In season 8 my prediction is Dontos Hollard becomes critically important…somehow. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/433 "2017-08-11T22:15:43Z")
Not a topic for this show-only thread, but there’s a lot of back story to Ser Dontos and House Hollard out there in other media. It’s entirely possible he becomes important again, but at this point I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/434 "2017-08-11T23:27:07Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > I’ve briefly entertained the thought, as well. If I want to try to make sense of it, I can imagine that the alternative history where Bran is not a target for assassination is a world where the chaos sewn by Littlefinger is just enough to start low-level, slow-burning wars and Littlefinger is able to covertly manipulate events to his own end such that all of the five Kingdoms are weakened and Littlefinger ascends to the throne, only to have all of Westeros destroyed by the White Walker army. Bran, somehow seeing that this future can’t be prevented with less chaos as Littlefinger is always able to manipulate things his way, instead opts to create a more chaotic situation, one too chaotic for Littlefinger to control with his machinations. So Bran manipulates the past to arrange his own failed assassination that leads to more chaos, a quicker, more intense war for the throne emerges that Littlefinger struggles to take control of, and eventually the kingdom unites in time to fend off the White Walker army. That is very creative, and it would make a great story. But I thought that the Wall magically kept the White Walkers out until Bran screwed up. So if he can manipulate events in the past, wouldn’t it be a lot easier, and a lot less bloody, for him to let Littlefinger have his fun, and just manipulate himself into not screwing up? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/435 "2017-08-12T00:02:19Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The fact that Cat almost died during Bran’s assassination attempt is a significant point against the “Littlefinger planned it” theory. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > She wasn’t supposed to be there, according to the assassin. > [@DrCube](#): > > That also fails the sniff test. No, it doesn’t. The very fact that the assassin was given information that Cat wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) be there is pretty close to a smoking gun for Littlefinger. There’s no one else that he cares for, and no one else he would have given instructions for an assassin to avoid killing. But I’m thinking more and more about this Hot Pie theory, as it holds way more water than the stupid Joffrey idea… ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/436 "2017-08-12T00:02:46Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > That is very creative, and it would make a great story. But I thought that the Wall magically kept the White Walkers out until Bran screwed up. So if he can manipulate events in the past, wouldn’t it be a lot easier, and a lot less bloody, for him to let Littlefinger have his fun, and just manipulate himself into not screwing up? I don’t know that we know the Wall failing, assuming it ultimately does fail as we all imagine it must, is definitely because of Bran’s screw-up, but anyway that’s always a problem with time travel stories. Why not just nip Littlefinger’s schemes in the bud? Or change his childhood so he’s a better person that doesn’t place lust for power over people? Why not stop the Mad King from going apeshit while in power and arranging a more orderly succession? Why not prevent the Night King’s creation? Etc., etc. Some things just have to happen for the drama. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/437 "2017-08-12T00:08:37Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > No, it doesn’t. The very fact that the assassin was given information that Cat wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) be there is pretty close to a smoking gun for Littlefinger. There’s no one else that he cares for, and no one else he would have given instructions for an assassin to avoid killing. > > But I’m thinking more and more about this Hot Pie theory, as it holds way more water than the stupid Joffrey idea… Eh, “you weren’t supposed to be here” doesn’t have to mean “kill Bran, but be super careful not to kill Cat, because I love her”. A much simpler explanation is “Kill Bran, don’t kill anyone else to keep things simple”, and the assassin had gotten information (either from whoever hired him, or via bribing a random guard) that Bran would be alone in his bedroom at some particular time. So “you’re not supposed to be here” just means “no one else was supposed to be here”, not Cat specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/438 "2017-08-12T01:20:21Z")
Thanks for the botched-killing-of-Bran recap, all. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > …He says “You’re not supposed to be here. No one is supposed to be here. It’s a mercy. He’s dead already” to Cat and then says “aaarargh” > [@TonySinclair](#): > > From the castle of the same name. Perhaps he was dictating. > [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > …Maybe the Dothraki way is better after all; at least you hear them coming. From over the horizon, no less! > [@duality72](#): > > I’ve briefly entertained the thought, as well. If I want to try to make sense of it, I can imagine that the alternative history where Bran is not a target for assassination is a world where the chaos sewn by Littlefinger is just enough to start low-level, slow-burning wars and Littlefinger is able to covertly manipulate events to his own end such that all of the five Kingdoms are weakened and Littlefinger ascends to the throne, only to have all of Westeros destroyed by the White Walker army. Bran, somehow seeing that this future can’t be prevented with less chaos as Littlefinger is always able to manipulate things his way, instead opts to create a more chaotic situation, one too chaotic for Littlefinger to control with his machinations. So Bran manipulates the past to arrange his own failed assassination that leads to more chaos, a quicker, more intense war for the throne emerges that Littlefinger struggles to take control of, and eventually the kingdom unites in time to fend off the White Walker army… I _love_ this! Nicely done. ---
**Author:** ![MsJinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@MsJinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsJinx)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/439 "2017-08-12T05:46:52Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > That is very creative, and it would make a great story. But I thought that the Wall magically kept the White Walkers out until Bran screwed up. So if he can manipulate events in the past, wouldn’t it be a lot easier, and a lot less bloody, for him to let Littlefinger have his fun, and just manipulate himself into not screwing up? Something like that keeps nagging at me…Bran told Arya that the Valyrian blade was meant to kill him. Since he has been touched by the Night King, what if he has a bit of White Walker in him now, and could be turned easily due to that connection while still alive, but if he had been stabbed with the Valyrian blade he would be dead even if touched by a WW - like a preventive measure? It may not make sense, and I am having a hard time with the Three Eyed Raven/time continuum/Hodor thing, but I hope as more is revealed it might come together in my head. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/440 "2017-08-12T07:39:25Z")
Littlefinger knew what the dagger was worth. It is priceless valyrian steel. No way would he have been foolish enough to give it to some twit who would have no idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=23)