# Game of Thrones 7.04 "The Spoils of War" 8/6/2017 \[Show discussion only\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 6, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955 "2017-08-06T22:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/161 "2017-08-07T17:44:51Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Bran was controlling present time Hodor by warging into past Hodor. I think it’s possible that he could do the same thing with the Mad King. Warg into the Mad King in the past to control a dragon in the present. Hodor was alive in both the past and the present while the mad king has been dead for a long while. He can’t do anything anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/162 "2017-08-07T17:47:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Bran was controlling present time Hodor by warging into past Hodor. I think it’s possible that he could do the same thing with the Mad King. Warg into the Mad King in the past to control a dragon in the present. I don’t even understand what you’re implying. That the mad King can mind control dragons in the future? Why wouldn’t Bran skip the middleman and just warg into a dragon? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/163 "2017-08-07T17:53:15Z")
So if Qyburn can build more ballistas, he could have an effective defense. On the other hand, Dany knows what she is facing now. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/164 "2017-08-07T17:53:55Z")
And why would Bran be involved or interested in flying a dragon? He’s pretty neutral. Also, the third dragon pilot is likely Jorah. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/165 "2017-08-07T17:54:57Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Who are the “Tarq bastards” and in which episode did they appear? He’s referring to the possibility that Jaime and Cersei are Targaryian bastards of the Mad King. Which they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/166 "2017-08-07T17:55:04Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I don’t even understand what you’re implying. That the mad King can mind control dragons in the future? > > Why wouldn’t Bran skip the middleman and just warg into a dragon? I doubt it’s that simple. We’ve seen Bran warg Hodor and Summer, both of whom were in close physical proximity to him and receptive to his control (or in Hodor’s case, not strong enough to resist). This doesn’t suggest he can mind-link a hostile dragon that is currently on the other side of the continent, or that he can control the actions of a long dead Aerys II that he sees in a vision. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/167 "2017-08-07T17:57:21Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Hodor was alive in both the past and the present while the mad king has been dead for a long while. He can’t do anything anymore. Warging is magic and controlling dragons is magic. There’s no real rules or logic behind them. > [@Snarky Kong](#): > > I don’t even understand what you’re implying. That the mad King can mind control dragons in the future? > > Why wouldn’t Bran skip the middleman and just warg into a dragon? _shrug_ He was stuck in the past when he Hodored Hodor and the same thing could happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/168 "2017-08-07T17:57:47Z")
Dany deserves to lose that dragon. The first spear that missed let her know that there was an actual threat to the dragon. The battle was all but over at that point, so there was no tactical point to not withdrawing the dragon; it was high risk and no reward. It’s pure hubris that he (she?) was injured, and it’s Dany’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/169 "2017-08-07T17:59:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Warging is magic and controlling dragons is magic. There’s no real rules or logic behind them. Except there have been plenty of rules and logic set forth within the story for warging. There’s no good reason (aside from truly shitty storytelling) to abandon them and handwave it away with “but…magic!” ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/170 "2017-08-07T18:04:31Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Except there have been plenty of rules and logic set forth within the story for warging. There’s no good reason (aside from truly shitty storytelling) to abandon them and handwave it away with “but…magic!” Which of the rules would using the Mad King in the past to control a present dragon violate? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/171 "2017-08-07T18:05:20Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which of the rules would using the Mad King in the past to control a present dragon violate? Proximity. As has been mentioned several times. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/172 "2017-08-07T18:05:49Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > And why would Bran be involved or interested in flying a dragon? He’s pretty neutral. Also, the third dragon pilot is likely Jorah. To kill the undead. That’s the entire point of Bran. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/173 "2017-08-07T18:07:40Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Proximity. As has been mentioned several times. Proximity of who to what? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/174 "2017-08-07T18:08:36Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > To kill the undead. That’s the entire point of Bran. Nah - too easy. The dragons will all be dead by the time the battle against the army of the dead comes around. They’re going to have to arm the entire north (and Unsullied and Dothraki) with dragonglass to win that battle. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/175 "2017-08-07T18:10:14Z")
Bran did dream warg into Summer when he was bedridden and Summer was outside somewhere, so the range is not really known. That’s not comparable to across all of Westeros though. Maybe he got better at it. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/176 "2017-08-07T18:12:17Z")
Let me try to get all this Bran stuff clear in my head. Since his storyline bored me, I didn’t pay as strict attention as I should have. So. . . this is what I get so far. He got all the info from the Tree God in a few seconds (where Bran “died” according to poor, misused Sister Reed), this was NOT how the information was supposed to be imparted, so Bran is spending a lot of time by the tree (which he will presumably occupy once he turns totally into Tree God) trying to sort shit out. Can Bran see the future? What did the Tree tell him again? Was it ‘everything that was’ or did he add ‘everything that will be’? I’m thinking Bran knows only everything that ever happened and not what will happen because what will happen cannot be known since what is happening in the present can change that. Which is why he is being very careful about what he tells to whom. He has to figure out all the implications of his every move. He did tell someone (the Reed girl? Sansa?) that he can only grasp the past in bits and pieces. This means we are all still waiting for Bran’s Big Reveal. My speculation is that Bran’s Big Reveal is somehow going to tie the ancient stories of the Children, First Men and White Walkers and the events happening in the present all together in a bow. I original thought he’d end up being Bran the Builder by somehow forming the wall in the present by building it in the future but it looks like the White Walkers are just gonna walk around the damn wall. Meanwhile, back at the ranch. . . was I the only one who noticed all the hints that I’m right in my assessment that Dany is going to tear down the monarchy and put some kind of Republic in its place? "She is not the queen as a birthright, she’s The Queen because we chose her."Jaime telling Bronn that once the war was over, Cersei will rule over a peaceful kingdom and Bronn pretty much laughing in his face. Jon convincing Dany not to melt the populace of King’s Landing because she’s changing the shit world everyone grew up in. Perhaps by the end of everything there will only be a population of a few thousand non-dead people left so Westros will have to start over. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/177 "2017-08-07T18:18:04Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > I did consider this a decent twist at some point, bring the Dragons against Cersei and she goes “Hello cutie…” > > However, with the proper toasting that Jamie nearly got, I think that ship has sailed, or rather dragon flew off. > > The base theory was Tywin was barren and all the children were the mad kings. Works in the context of a serious twist in the series which GRMM has a good habit of. > > Then again, none of the dragons have shown any interest in Jon Snow, pretty much the only other strong blooded Targ in the show (sure there’s probably weak blood somewhere, Stannis might have had a shot, the lineage is there). I don’t think we’re intended to believe that all Targaryens are resistant to fire (Jon’s not, for example, and Viserys certainly wasn’t), nor are all dragons particularly submissive to Targaryens. Dany’s fire resistance was a one-time thing (well, two times now, since she burnt the Dosh Kaleen), but that was more magic than genetics. And dragons have to like their riders and have some magical bond with them in order to ride and control them, but not all Targaryens can become dragon riders and not being a Targaryen is no bar to riding them. It’s just that in Westerosi history, Targaryens were the only people who had dragons, so of course they were closely associated in people’s minds. But it’s not like an entire species has a symbiotic bond with one particular family. In other words, there’s nothing preventing Tyrion and Jon from riding dragons, and their Targaryen ancestry (or lack thereof) doesn’t make them fireproof either. I don’t think there’s anything preventing Jorah from riding one. Maybe Grey Worm and Missandei, or Dany’s Dothraki blood riders might get the chance instead. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/178 "2017-08-07T18:18:57Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > The base theory was Tywin was barren and all the children were the mad kings. Works in the context of a serious twist in the series which GRMM has a good habit of. Tywin was The Hand but I thought that was later in their lives. Again faulty memory but I seem to remember the kids were all born at Casterly Rock. There was not even a hint of their mother hanging around Kings Landing to get impregnated. Not that it makes it impossible but if it’s true then it’s very bad storytelling. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Yep. The writers want us to like him, but it can equally be so that his execution will be more painful for us or because he will succeed his father and switch side. > > People have mentioned Tarly Sr being burned or killed during the battle. I didn’t notice it. Is that a certainty? > > I thought it was established that it was Joffrey. But when you make me think of it, I’m not sure if I got this from the books, from the show, or from convincing speculations on the internet. > > I don’t believe it will happen, but it would be a neat idea. But I think it was mentioned long ago that only his bones were given back (and very possibly without the head). There was a shot of a bald guy burning. It made me momentarily wonder if it was Tarly but I don’t think so. I would hope they would make it clearer when a character dies. It was not established that it was Joffrey. What did happen was Littlefinger did claim it was his and said Tyrion won it off him in a bet. That was obviously a lie. I’m not sure if that was simply to put the Starks in conflict with the Lannisters or if he actually knew who did it. Yes it was just bones. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/179 "2017-08-07T18:25:29Z")
I don’t think anyone mentioned this yet, but Sansa just disappears after observing Arya handle her own versus Brienne during the sparring session. We just see Littlefinger by himself at the end. One would think that Sansa would be amazed and at least acknowledge her sister’s newfound fighting skills. Could there be another Stark family rift happening? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955/180 "2017-08-07T18:35:13Z")
That was suggested in one of the recaps I read; that Arya and Sansa would have a rift that could be exploited by Littlefinger. (And the recap also mentioned that each of the two had the experiences they wished for as children, except it didn’t go as planned. Sansa wanted the royal experience, while Arya wanted adventure and to learn how to fight.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-04-the-spoils-of-war-8-6-2017-show-discussion-only/792955.md?page=10)