# Game of Thrones 7.05 "Eastwatch" 8/13/17 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585 "2017-08-13T22:26:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/321 "2017-08-17T20:59:35Z")
Thanks. I watched the show on a four-inch phone screen, so some detail may have been lost. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/322 "2017-08-17T21:08:30Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > …And Dany claims to be all about letting people choose to follow her, but when Randyll Tarly, Dickon Tarly and their soldiers were in front of her, the choice seemed to be, “Bend the knee and swear allegiance to me or die horribly.” In short, no choice at all… > [@DigitalC](#): > > They are open enemies unlike say Jon Snow. They are “open enemies” only in the sense that they were just the target of a horrifically violent attack by Dany and her horde. She invaded Westeros, not the other way around. I agree with Dewey that the “democratic leader” narrative is somewhat at odds with the notion of invading a nation and overthrowing the current regime. She can spin it to some extent as liberating the downtrodden masses – but Dany seems to be equally concerned with seizing power and having the world bow at her feet as undisputed Queen; and, of course, there is the problem that she is accompanied by a huge army of rapey Dothraki. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/323 "2017-08-17T21:15:23Z")
To be fair, I don’t think anyone has suggested establishing a republic or freely electing a leader. They’re still stuck in the idea of a monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/324 "2017-08-17T21:25:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yes, it was the note from Jon Snow warning of the coming of the White Walkers and seeking to rally the Seven Kingdoms to unite and fight them. No, it was the note from Bran Stark (via Wolkan, now Winterfell’s Maester) about his vision of the white walkers. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/325 "2017-08-17T23:58:23Z")
Well that didn’t take [long.](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074WMRH64) ---
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/326 "2017-08-18T00:50:11Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I don’t understand why they don’t just send one of the dragons north of the Wall and just start setting the White Walkers and wight on fire. It’s not like they have a Scorpion or anything. No need for a whole army and all this dragonglass mining. Has it been established, in the tv series, that either the White Walkers or the Night King are vulnerable to fire? Not being snarky; I can’t keep up with everything over 7 years of tv shows, much less if there were books that might exist about this. I know the wights are. The wights can absolutely be burnt to a crispy wight crisp. Has it been established that a dragon can be warged into, and controlled from a distance, and does not need a rider? Not sure you can just “send one”. Again, not snark, mean to foster discussion. ---
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/327 "2017-08-18T00:59:36Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > They are “open enemies” only in the sense that they were just the target of a horrifically violent attack by Dany and her horde. She invaded Westeros, not the other way around. Dany was born in Westeros. She is not an invader. She was born in Westeros, and is the direct heir (yeah, I know–not really) to the last legitimate king on the Iron Throne. > [@](#): > > I agree with Dewey that the “democratic leader” narrative is somewhat at odds with the notion of invading a nation and overthrowing the current regime. She can spin it to some extent as liberating the downtrodden masses – but Dany seems to be equally concerned with seizing power and having the world bow at her feet as undisputed Queen; and, of course, there is the problem that she is accompanied by a huge army of rapey Dothraki. Except for the “rapey Dothraki” bit, that sounds a whole lot like the history of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/328 "2017-08-18T01:22:07Z")
Did they mention what happened to the rest of the Brotherhood at any point? Even by the time the Hound joined them there was still a good number of them, ditto when they spent the night in that house with the corpses. Now there’s just Beric and Thoros. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/329 "2017-08-18T01:27:31Z")
> [@jkirkman](#): > > Has it been established, in the tv series, that either the White Walkers or the Night King are vulnerable to fire? > > Not being snarky; I can’t keep up with everything over 7 years of tv shows, much less if there were books that might exist about this. > > I know the wights are. The wights can absolutely be burnt to a crispy wight crisp. > > Has it been established that a dragon can be warged into, and controlled from a distance, and does not need a rider? > > Not sure you can just “send one”. > > Again, not snark, mean to foster discussion. In Hardhome a White Walker had no trouble walking into a burning building, in fact [the flames die down around him](https://youtu.be/SOjIVd_7bsw?t=164). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/330 "2017-08-18T01:36:24Z")
Missed edit, The Night King also gave zero fucks about the barrier of fire the Children made in [The Door](https://youtu.be/GAoShLmdxDE?t=153). Dragonfire though is established as being much, _much_ hotter than ordinary fire though, to the extent it can melt stone and turn an armoured man to ash in a matter of seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/331 "2017-08-18T05:32:13Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Dragonfire though is established as being much, _much_ hotter than ordinary fire though, to the extent it can melt stone and turn an armoured man to ash in a matter of seconds. If that were true, shouldn’t it be a different color? And when did the show establish that? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/332 "2017-08-18T05:43:51Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > If that were true, shouldn’t it be a different color? And when did the show establish that? It’s magic fire. And I think its stone-melting properties were mentioned in relation to the burning of Harrenhall. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/333 "2017-08-18T07:47:50Z")
> [@jkirkman](#): > > Dany was born in Westeros. She is not an invader. > > She was born in Westeros, and is the direct heir (yeah, I know–not really) to the last legitimate king on the Iron Throne. > > Except for the “rapey Dothraki” bit, that sounds a whole lot like the history of the United States. Being born in Westeros doesn’t stop her being an invader. Neither does the fact she is direct heir of the last legitimate king on the Iron Throne make her any less of an invader. If that sort of stuff made you universally viewed as legitimate then Muslims would still be ruling in Spain and the likes of Henry VII would never have been considered an invader by his Yorkist opponents. What I understand from the nonsense of this season is that it’s probably not best policy to go around burning your opponents alive. You can flay, behead and poison till your hearts content but you shouldn’t really burn them alive. At least this is the belief of Tyrion and Varys. Tyrion and Vary’s are the conscience of the Targeryan camp. If you keep burning enemies to death then you run the risk of being labelled as an invader. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/334 "2017-08-18T08:09:48Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I think his point is we don’t know how Cersei found out. I realize there are physical symptoms and late periods, but they don’t have pregnancy pee sticks in Westeros. Ultimately that doesn’t really matter, and we can just take her word for it. It could as easily be menopause. In fact, it could explain some of her recent decision-making. (I may have to turn in my girl card for that one . . .) > [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Being born in Westeros doesn’t stop her being an invader. > . . . > What I understand from the nonsense of this season is that it’s probably not best policy to go around burning your opponents alive. . . . If you keep burning enemies to death then you run the risk of being labelled as an invader. If you keep burning your enemies alive you risk being seen as more of the same. Which defeats your purpose if you are hoping to gain loyalty bu proving you are different. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/335 "2017-08-18T08:56:03Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > If you keep burning your enemies alive you risk being seen as more of the same. Which defeats your purpose if you are hoping to gain loyalty bu proving you are different. It’s not even just more of the same. If Dany had had the Tarlys beheaded, no-one would have blinked. A bit harsh maybe, but well within the accepted norms of Westerosi society. But execution by dragon fire is alien. Eldritch. Somehow both more and less than human. That doesn’t make rational sense, but rational sense is neither here nor there. On top of that, it has shades of her daddy the Mad King, who loved to burn people alive. Dany’s claim to power has two justifications: Firstly, that she’s rightful heir to the throne. And secondly that she will be a Good Queen and care for her people. The Tarly immolation follows on immediately from Dany’s claim that she was going to usher in a new, better era where aristocratic despotism is abandoned for some undefined system focused on the welfare of the common man. She emphatically undercuts her moral claim and her hereditary one with her actions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/336 "2017-08-18T11:23:19Z")
Sorry if this has already been covered, but are we to think that Dany now suspects something about Jon? Does she have any inkling who Jon actually is? She obviously was surprised/curious/whatever as to the dragon’s reaction to Jon. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/337 "2017-08-18T11:54:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sorry if this has already been covered, but are we to think that Dany now suspects something about Jon? Does she have any inkling who Jon actually is? She obviously was surprised/curious/whatever as to the dragon’s reaction to Jon. Of course that was Chekov’s Dragon Bonding. 😉 She noted how her bro clearly wasn’t the Father of Dragons because he could be killed by fire. She pays attention. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/338 "2017-08-18T12:01:57Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > If that were true, shouldn’t it be a different color? And when did the show establish that? Look at what’s left of the [Lannister line](https://youtu.be/yehoQilXYrM?t=59) after Drogon makes one pass. Aegon used dragonfire to melt the towers of [Harrenhal.](http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/9/9b/Harrenhal.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150328214605) Balerion also melted the swords to make the Iron Throne, which, if the name is taken literally, would have melted at about 1,500 C. As for the colour, I suspect it’s either an oversight, dragons being expensive enough without changing the flames with CG, or it’s magic so who cares. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/339 "2017-08-18T14:14:00Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > …As for the colour, I suspect it’s either an oversight, dragons being expensive enough without changing the flames with CG, or it’s magic so who cares. I’m not sure what other color would work visually. Blue-white dragonfire might look kind of cool, and be suggestive of extreme temperature. But blue-white is the color of the White Walkers, and we need some contrast for the inevitable dragon-WW fight. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/340 "2017-08-18T14:30:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not sure what other color would work visually. Blue-white dragonfire might look kind of cool, and be suggestive of extreme temperature. But blue-white is the color of the White Walkers, and we need some contrast for the inevitable dragon-WW fight. That’s exactly what it is. [The two colors left in the director’s palette](https://priceonomics.com/why-every-movie-looks-sort-of-orange-and-blue/). Orange is fire and blue is ice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=18)