# Game of Thrones 7.05 "Eastwatch" 8/13/17 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585 "2017-08-13T22:26:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/341 "2017-08-18T14:48:12Z")
> [@jkirkman](#): > > Has it been established, in the tv series, that either the White Walkers or the Night King are vulnerable to fire? > > Not being snarky; I can’t keep up with everything over 7 years of tv shows, much less if there were books that might exist about this. > > I know the wights are. The wights can absolutely be burnt to a crispy wight crisp. > > Has it been established that a dragon can be warged into, and controlled from a distance, and does not need a rider? > > Not sure you can just “send one”. > > Again, not snark, mean to foster discussion. I think for a story-telling standpoint, the White Walkers HAVE to be immune to dragon fire. Otherwise, this story is over. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/342 "2017-08-18T18:14:13Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think for a story-telling standpoint, the White Walkers HAVE to be immune to dragon fire. Otherwise, this story is over. Yeah, that was my thought as well. Dany could just send one or two up north and be done with it in two wags of a dragon’s tail. I think we’ve seen that the only thing that kills them is dragon glass and Valyrian steel, right? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/343 "2017-08-18T18:25:43Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think for a story-telling standpoint, the White Walkers HAVE to be immune to dragon fire. Otherwise, this story is over. I don’t think the white walkers have to be immune if they have a counter measure like Qyburn’s scorpion. To speculate a bit here, for the plot to continue and the army of the dead to be an actual danger they have to make it across the wall. Somehow, our band of idiots on their stupid mission is going to trigger that. Is there a better weapon against a wall of ice than a fire breathing dragon? The Night King and WWs are magic and their weapons are magic as well. I’d imagine a WW spear would be super effective against a dragon, for example. Maybe the kill one and reanimate it, or maybe the NK can just warg into one. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/344 "2017-08-18T18:41:08Z")
Perhaps if the Scooby gang is able to capture a wight and bring it to King’s Landing, it will then act on behalf of the White Walkers, trying to kill Cersei, or at least capturing intelligence about the location? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/345 "2017-08-18T19:14:02Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Here’s what bothered me: Why didn’t Davos search the guards’ bodies for the gold he’d just paid them?? Perhaps this checklist will be useful: [Reddit - Dive into anything](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6tu72x/main_spoilers_learn_to_smuggle_with_ser_davos/) > [@Critical1](#): > > [Cersei] is going to get every last man, woman, and child killed by the army of darkness with her idiocy. > > Everyone dies when she switches sides at some point thinking she can handle the nights king by herself. [Jaime] ganks her with a prison shank in the neck. I suspect that will be his tragic end - becoming the Queenslayer, killing his sister, lover and the mother of his children (including her latest, still unborn) with tears in his eyes, knowing it’s for the good of the realm. > [@Acsenray](#): > > …I don’t think I see all the sexual tension between Daenerys and Jon Snow that everyone else thinks is so obvious. Really? Esp. since he bonded with her dragon, I’d say there’s a definite undercurrent there. Certainly Ser Friendzone, er, Jorah seems to be aware of it. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > No, it was the note from Bran Stark (via Wolkan, now Winterfell’s Maester) about his vision of the white walkers. Ah, right you are. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/346 "2017-08-18T19:27:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t think the white walkers have to be immune if they have a counter measure like Qyburn’s scorpion… And, of course, if a dragon gets taken out at some stage (by a WW or anyone else), that opens up the possibility of wight dragon. Then it’s dragon vs dragon, a battle that could drag on and on. ETA: sorry, I missed that you already mentioned that. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/347 "2017-08-18T20:00:59Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think for a story-telling standpoint, the White Walkers HAVE to be immune to dragon fire. Otherwise, this story is over. What if one of the dragons joins the White Walkers after being killed? Could be interesting. ETA: nevermind that. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/348 "2017-08-18T20:10:22Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I think for a story-telling standpoint, the White Walkers HAVE to be immune to dragon fire. Otherwise, this story is over. It’s already been shown that White Walkers are immune to fire. Both at Hardhome and when they came for Bran and Meera, they walked right through the fire and their coldness even put out the flames wherever they went. But it’s also been heavily implied that wights are _not_ immune to fire. I imagine that Jon’s rough plan of action is to burn the wights with dragonfire and possibly wild fire too, and finish off the WWs with Valyrian steel and dragonglass. I don’t think it has been clarified whether dragonglass kills wights, but I _think_ we’ve already seen that Valyrian steel doesn’t affect them differently than regular blades. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/349 "2017-08-18T20:15:16Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And, of course, if a dragon gets taken out at some stage (by a WW or anyone else), that opens up the possibility of wight dragon. Then it’s dragon vs dragon, a battle that could drag on and on. > > ETA: sorry, I missed that you already mentioned that. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What if one of the dragons joins the White Walkers after being killed? Could be interesting. > > ETA: nevermind that. I’m now imagining the final shot of this season is a dead dragon reawakening just before the cut to black. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/350 "2017-08-18T20:18:25Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I’m now imagining the final shot of this season is a dead dragon reawakening just before the cut to black. I imagine the newly revived dragon opening his mouth… and a split second later his entire body bursts into flame and then a small blizzard of ashes falls through the air. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/351 "2017-08-18T21:18:53Z")
Or what if the revived White Walker dragon spews ice rather than fire? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/352 "2017-08-18T22:52:30Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > …I don’t see much sexual tension, but I _am_ assuming that the final episode of the series will contain a Restoration of the Natural Order scene–that is, after all the emphasis on Daenerys asking people to Bend the Knee, she will Bend the Knee to Jon (as his properly-submissive bride) and the vast majority of the audience will sigh with satisfaction that the world has been put right. > > If the writers _aren’t_ building toward that, I will be astonished. > [@Colibri](#): > > If Jon and Danaerys are both alive at the end, I will be astonished. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > ``` > ...I suspect that will be his tragic end - becoming the Queenslayer, killing his sister, lover and the mother of his children (including her latest, still unborn) with tears in his eyes, knowing it's for the good of the realm. ... > > ``` > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I’m now imagining the final shot of this season is a dead dragon reawakening just before the cut to black. I’m surprised there hasn’t been a “predict final scenes and character fates in the HBO show” thread yet. Of course the eighth season won’t even arrive until 2018 or even 2019, so maybe it’s not so surprising. But it would be interesting. As for Dany and Jon: yes, I do assume the end for them will be Dany showing Proper Female Submission to Jon. After that I suppose she could die. But the fact is that this show is profoundly socially-conservative in its values, and the final fates of Jon and Dany will reflect this (I’m predicting). Socially conservative values manifest in the show in several ways, but a couple of illustrations: There are very few non-white people as long-term continuing characters, and those that exist are “properly” supportive of a white woman–essentially, they are her minions. There are very few gay characters, and those we see tend to die bloody and/or humiliating deaths. (We have yet to see Yara’s fate, of course, but who would be surprised if it turns out that she has humiliation and pain coming to her?)\* So, sure: I expect that one of the most prominent ‘morals’ of GoT, HBO version at least, will be that Women Just Aren’t Suited For Positions of Power. Virtually every viewer is looking forward to seeing Cersei degraded and demeaned before her inevitable death, perhaps at the hands of her brother (who in that case would be rightfully restoring the Natural Order of male control over unruly females). And we are already seeing Daenerys being shown up as a poor decision-maker. Daenerys is a smartly-drawn character for this sort of thing: a show with nothing but easily-vilified women (like Cersei), who very clearly need to be put in their place, tends to be boring. But a character who looks for a while as though she might genuinely challenge the values of the audience–that is, a woman who looks as though she might be capable of ruling justly and competently–creates incredible tension for that audience. How can this be? _Can_ it be?? When that tension is resolved, the audience experiences great satisfaction. And that’s what I expect to happen with the end of GoT, months and months from now—after many seasons of enduring the possibility that a woman might be a good leader, it will be shown that she really isn’t, after all. She will bend the knee to Jon, and this will be deeply thrilling to many in the audience. \*Anticipating the inevitable reaction: —Yes, lots of non-gay characters on the show experience bloody and/or humiliating deaths. But only ‘being gay’ is a reliable _predictor_ that the character will experience same. The Vulture has an interesting article that expands on this: > **[Game of Thrones Has a Gay Problem](https://www.vulture.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-has-a-gay-problem.html)** > > It's hard to be gay in Westeros. —In re the paucity of non-white characters: yes, the setting of GoT is supposed to be “sort-of-Western-Europe in Medieval times,” and this is often offered as an explanation of the overwhelming whiteness of the cast of characters. But GoT has a LOT of elements that were not present in Western Europe in Medieval times–dragons, wights, White Walkers, giants, warging, etc. So ‘faithfulness to Western European conditions’ doesn’t seem like a reasonable defense. There’s nothing inherently wrong with making a show for people who prefer to see homosexual characters come to unenviable ends, and prefer few non-white characters, etc. But being honest about it seems like a reasonable position to take. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/353 "2017-08-18T22:59:28Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Perhaps if the Scooby gang is able to capture a wight and bring it to King’s Landing, it will then act on behalf of the White Walkers, trying to kill Cersei, or at least capturing intelligence about the location? Gods no! Don’t kill Cersei. She’s done more for their cause than any man alive! Maybe a WW agrees to come down as an envoy to ask for her hand in marriage. Who better to marry that \*\*\*\* than the Nights King? The popular theory is Jamie kills Cersei? I’m voting for Arya. A Stark needs to finally win vs Lannister. Perhaps Jamie can stand by and let Arya do it? Or Arya as Jamie? But that gets around my intent some. No Lannisters have been killed by Starks yet, right? Robb won a battle, but peons don’t count (aka Westeros Rules). ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/354 "2017-08-18T23:18:13Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > There’s nothing inherently wrong with making a show for people who prefer to see homosexual characters come to unenviable ends In fairness, they’ve really moved the needle on Eunuch acceptance in America. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/355 "2017-08-18T23:18:29Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > There are very few gay characters, and those we see tend to die bloody and/or humiliating deaths. Kind of a silly generalization. _Most characters_ on GoT die bloody and humiliating deaths. (If they haven’t yet, they probably will.) And most of the surviving characters regardless of sexuality have undergone pretty horrible ordeals, including death, rape, maiming, torture, castration, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/356 "2017-08-18T23:26:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Kind of a silly generalization. _Most characters_ on GoT die bloody and humiliating deaths. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > \*Anticipating the inevitable reaction: > —Yes, lots of non-gay characters on the show experience bloody and/or humiliating deaths. But only ‘being gay’ is a reliable _predictor_ that the character will experience same. … Reading my post would have revealed that I’d already made the point you posted. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/357 "2017-08-18T23:36:04Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > As for Dany and Jon: yes, I do assume the end for them will be Dany showing Proper Female Submission to Jon. After that I suppose she could die. But the fact is that this show is profoundly socially-conservative in its values, and the final fates of Jon and Dany will reflect this (I’m predicting). 😕 The show that had four women around a war table plotting how to defeat another woman is profoundly socially-conservative? The idea that Game of Thrones has a concept of “Proper Female Submission” is laughable. I can think of literally no major female character that is submissive to anyone in the show. Seriously, give us one major female character that you consider to be submissive. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/358 "2017-08-18T23:38:57Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > In fairness, they’ve really moved the needle on Eunuch acceptance in America. You’re right. There’s not another show–there’s _never_ been another show!–that can come close to GoT in the eunuch-outreach department. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/359 "2017-08-19T00:02:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > 😕 > > The show that had four women around a war table plotting how to defeat another woman is profoundly socially-conservative? > > The idea that Game of Thrones has a concept of “Proper Female Submission” is laughable. I can think of literally no major female character that is submissive to anyone in the show. Seriously, give us one major female character that you consider to be submissive. You beat me to it. Utterly ridiculous. _All_ the major female characters are stronger and less submissive than any other show I can think of, and this is set in a medieval feudal culture! There’s a house run by a formidable 10-year-old girl, for Christ’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/360 "2017-08-19T00:09:42Z")
ETA: … and the idea that, even though the place is virtually run by women, the fact that the female leaders are _flawed_ characters indicates the underlying sexism? SJW nonsense. What would be incongruous and patronizing on the part of the writers would be if the female leaders were _lacking_ in flaws, since every male character is also deeply flawed in one way or another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=19)