# Game of Thrones 7.05 "Eastwatch" 8/13/17 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585 "2017-08-13T22:26:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/361 "2017-08-19T00:11:27Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Reading my post would have revealed that I’d already made the point you posted. You acknowledged the point, but you dismissed it. And as I said, many heterosexual characters have suffered far worse fates than the gay characters. There is one gay character who as far as we know is still alive and doing well, Renly’s lover Olyvar. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/362 "2017-08-19T00:16:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There is one gay character who as far as we know is still alive and doing well, Renly’s lover Olyvar. Wasn’t Olyvar killed in the Great Sept Explosion? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/363 "2017-08-19T00:16:42Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > ETA: … and the idea that, even though the place is virtually run by women, the fact that the female leaders are _flawed_ characters indicates the underlying sexism? SJW nonsense. What would be incongruous and patronizing on the part of the writers would be if the female leaders were _lacking_ in flaws, since every male character is also deeply flawed in one way or another. One of the points in GoT is that _everyone_ is flawed. Of the major gay characters, only Loras suffers because of his sexuality. It’s implied that Varys is gay by inclination, if not by ability. He hasn’t suffered all that much during the show itself. He’s been castrated, but so have two heterosexual characters, Theon and Grey Worm. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/364 "2017-08-19T00:25:19Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Wasn’t Olyvar killed in the Great Sept Explosion? He wasn’t in that episode, and in fact hadn’t made an appearance since the middle of the previous season. There’s no reason to think he’s dead. In fact, since he helped Cersei she could have warned him not to go. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/365 "2017-08-19T00:32:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There is one gay character who as far as we know is still alive and doing well, Renly’s lover Olyvar. That should be Loras’s lover. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/366 "2017-08-19T00:35:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > He wasn’t in that episode, and in fact hadn’t made an appearance since the middle of the previous season. There’s no reason to think he’s dead. In fact, since he helped **Cersei she could have warned him not to go**. Cersei? Seriously? No she wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/367 "2017-08-19T00:54:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Cersei? Seriously? No she wouldn’t. I can imagine Cersei giving him a weak, suggestive warning. To test his loyalty. If he heeds, yay for him. If he attends, then so long, sucker. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/368 "2017-08-19T01:03:46Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Wasn’t Olyvar killed in the Great Sept Explosion? We haven’t Olyvar since he testified at Loras’s inquest. And Olyvar was relaxed, clean, and showing no signs whatsoever of torture or mistreatment. We’ve no clue what happened to him since then; he wasn’t present at Loras’s actual trial. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/369 "2017-08-19T01:22:04Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Reading my post would have revealed that I’d already made the point you posted. I tried to get through your post, but your agenda kept getting in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/370 "2017-08-19T01:38:30Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > SJW nonsense. As others in this thread have shown, it’s entirely possible to make this argument without using terms like this. It just discredits your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/371 "2017-08-19T02:09:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > As others in this thread have shown, it’s entirely possible to make this argument without using terms like this. It just discredits your argument. The post cycled through a checklist of ridiculous accusations: misogyny, homophobia and racism. I think the epithet “SJW nonsense” was entirely appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/372 "2017-08-19T04:46:24Z")
Also succinct. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/373 "2017-08-19T06:27:18Z")
As far as the assertion that GoT has “very few gay characters,” that is easily dismissed. There are about as many gay characters as we would expect, if homosexuality occurs in the GoT world at the same frequency as in our own. Major characters who have been depicted as gay and bisexual include: Renly Loras Oberyn (bisexual) Ellaria (bisexual) Yara (bisexual) Minor characters include Olyvar. Some major characters are sexually ambiguous or undetermined, such as Varys, Brienne, and Arya. The usual estimate of the frequency of homosexuality in modern populations is around 5-10% Of the characters listed, Olyvar appears in the fewest episodes (7). Per IMDB, There are about 110 adult characters who appear in at least 7 episodes. So we have at least 6 gay/bisexual characters out of 110, or 5.5%. There are many characters for whom we don’t have information about their sexuality, so we might expect that the actual percentage is higher. The assertion that GoT has a “gay problem” is not supported by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/374 "2017-08-19T07:01:33Z")
Brienne is 100% straight. She’s just not into feminine things. Arya…? Huh? Olyvar is a prostitute. He will do things for money. I seem to recall him saying he is not into women, but if you’re going to count him, might as well count the random whores who were with another and Tyrion/Podrick/etc. and never explicitly said a preference. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/375 "2017-08-19T07:13:52Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Brienne is 100% straight. She’s just not into feminine things. > > Arya…? Huh? > > Olyvar is a prostitute. He will do things for money. I seem to recall him saying he is not into women, but if you’re going to count him, might as well count the random whores who were with another and Tyrion/Podrick/etc. and never explicitly said a preference. Whatever. It seemed that Olyvar was preferentially homosexual, but would do whatever he was paid to do. I didn’t count Ros, who appeared to be preferentially heterosexual, but was shown having sex with another woman at the behest of Littlefinger. Ros appeared in 14 episodes. If you eliminate Olyvar, then the gay/bisexual character with the minimum appearances was Oberyn, still with 7, so the percentage doesn’t change very much. My point stands. As I said, we don’t know the preference of many characters, so five is a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/376 "2017-08-19T07:23:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Whatever. It seemed that Olyvar was preferentially homosexual, but would do whatever he was paid to do. I didn’t count Ros, who appeared to be preferentially heterosexual, but was shown having sex with another woman at the behest of Littlefinger. Ros appeared in 14 episodes. > > If you eliminate Olyvar, then the gay/bisexual character with the minimum appearances was Oberyn, still with 7, so the percentage doesn’t change very much. My point stands. As I said, we don’t know the preference of many characters, so five is a minimum. You responded to the minor point but not the main one: Brienne does not fit traditional values. But she is definitely not into women. And you will have to explain the Arya part. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/377 "2017-08-19T07:45:19Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > You responded to the minor point but not the main one: > > Brienne does not fit traditional values. But she is definitely not into women. > > And you will have to explain the Arya part. Just having homosexuals and bisexuals on GoT, and having at least some of them depicted in a sympathetic light is enough to head off any nonsense about GoT being anti-gay. No show is going to have the exact same proportions of every conceivable minority as seen in the real world. (and bear in mind it’s not even set in our world anyway). For Arya, what’s the confusion? To my knowledge there have been no clues about whether she likes guys or gals, or both, or neither. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/378 "2017-08-19T08:32:52Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Just having homosexuals and bisexuals on GoT, and having at least some of them depicted in a sympathetic light is enough to head off any nonsense about GoT being anti-gay. No show is going to have the exact same proportions of every conceivable minority as seen in the real world. (and bear in mind it’s not even set in our world anyway). > > For Arya, what’s the confusion? To my knowledge there have been no clues about whether she likes guys or gals, or both, or neither. I am confused? I’m pretty sure you are disputing something that we agree about…? As for Arya, I am confused why she was mentioned? I don’t know the sexuality of Greatjon Umber or Pyat Pree either, but it’s not worth mentioning. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/379 "2017-08-19T09:55:22Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I am confused? I’m pretty sure you are disputing something that we agree about…? Well I wasn’t pretty sure of that because how could I be? You didn’t state your position yet. But OK, you agree with me and others that the show is not anti-gay. > [@](#): > > As for Arya, I am confused why she was mentioned? I don’t know the sexuality of Greatjon Umber or Pyat Pree either, but it’s not worth mentioning. I’m confused by your confusion. Arya is a major character who has had plenty of screentime. At this time they have not alluded to her sexuality at all. It’s been left completely open, so at a future time, she may have a relationship with a girl, or may declare that she’s asexual, or whatever. Meanwhile there are vast numbers of smaller players who have no known sexuality just as a consequence of barely being on screen – we know almost nothing about them, period. And the vast majority are never going to have any relationship in the show. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/380 "2017-08-19T11:59:02Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As far as the assertion that GoT has “very few gay characters,” that is easily dismissed. There are about as many gay characters as we would expect, if homosexuality occurs in the GoT world at the same frequency as in our own… The overall setting is pseudo-medieval, with widespread homophobia, motivated (at least in part) by religion. That seems culturally consistent; and in that context we’d expect most LGBT characters to be closeted, so even if the apparent percentage were lower than we’d expect in a civilized modern nation, that would hardly be indicative of homophobia on the part of the _writers_. And in fact, as you have noted, there are numerous gay and bisexual characters, and I get no hint at all that their sexuality is portrayed by the writers with any particular associated pattern. Of course, in some cases they are persecuted by other homophobic _characters_ for their sexual orientation, consistent with the portrayed culture. In other cases their sexuality seems an incidental matter, with little or no bearing on the plot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=20)