# Game of Thrones 7.05 "Eastwatch" 8/13/17 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585 "2017-08-13T22:26:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/381 "2017-08-19T14:12:41Z")
To save anyone else who was confused the trouble, apparently “SJW” means: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] “Social justice warrior” (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual promoting socially progressive views, including feminism, civil rights, multiculturalism, and identity politics. The accusation of being an SJW carries implications of pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and being engaged in disingenuous social justice arguments or activism to raise personal reputation, also known as virtue signalling. [/QUOTE] > **[Social justice warrior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior)** > > Social justice warrior (SJW) is a pejorative term and internet meme mostly used for an individual who promotes socially progressive, left-wing or liberal views, including feminism, civil rights, gay and transgender rights, and multiculturalism. The accusation that somebody is an SJW carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments. > The phrase originated in the late 20th century as a neutral or positi... According to that article, being a SJW was considered to be a good thing in the 20th Century, but swapped to the current negative usage about 2011. I’m not convinced that the current usage will stick, and rather hope I don’t live long enough to find out 8-). ( **Then** I had to look up “identity politics”.) I now return you to our regularly scheduled GoT discussion. Hopefully. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/382 "2017-08-19T14:33:08Z")
I’m suspecting this is all leading to some sort of Marvel Team-Up, with the Social Justice Warriors joining up with the Community Organizers to incite some real changes. Marvel thinks long-term like that. ---
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/383 "2017-08-19T15:55:05Z")
> [@Randolph](#): > > I’m suspecting this is all leading to some sort of Marvel Team-Up, with the Social Justice Warriors joining up with the Community Organizers to incite some real changes. Marvel thinks long-term like that. Ok. **THIS** is funny. 🙂 (I was really confused as to how a **S** ingle **J** ewish **W** oman had anything to do with GoT) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/384 "2017-08-19T15:59:48Z")
I was still pondering the connection with Seriously Jeopardized Wombats. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/385 "2017-08-19T16:31:44Z")
Oh, I thought it stood for Ser Jorah’s Wincing. The guy is always wincing - especially when being flayed. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/386 "2017-08-19T19:23:57Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > You responded to the minor point but not the main one: That wasn’t my main point. I mentioned Brienne and Arya in passing. > [@](#): > > Brienne does not fit traditional values. But she is definitely not into women. Cite? I didn’t say she was into women, I said she was “sexually ambiguous or undetermined.” She doesn’t show any clear signs of being attracted to men either. She rolls her eyes when she notices Tormund’s attraction to her. (Of course, Tormund probably smells like a wet bear, so it may just be him.;)) She could be resigned to being celibate because she feels she is unattractive. She could be in denial about being lesbian. She could be asexual. My point is that we don’t really know what Brienne’s sexuality is. And it’s possible she doesn’t either. > [@](#): > > And you will have to explain the Arya part. It’s very simple. Although she’s a major character, we don’t have any information either way about Arya’s sexuality. Although she’s adolescent now, she’s shown no interest in either boys or girls. Other major characters whose sexual orientation (if any) we don’t know include Hodor, Bran, Meera, Jojen, and Jaqen (we may not even know Jaqen’s real sex). I’m not suggesting that any of these characters are gay. My point is that, if we are calculating the percentage of gay characters, we don’t know the sexuality of many of the characters, even some major ones, so there could be many more gay characters than we know about. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/387 "2017-08-19T19:37:31Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s very simple. Although she’s a major character, we don’t have any information either way about Arya’s sexuality. Although she’s adolescent now, she’s shown no interest in either boys or girls. While there’s been no explicit info about her sexuality, the show has given her a “masculine” image from the very first time we saw her, when she favored beating her brothers at archery over joining Sansa at needlepoint — not to mention being called “boy” for a season or two. I don’t see why anyone would question her inclusion on a list of the sexually ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/388 "2017-08-19T20:22:32Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > While there’s been no explicit info about her sexuality, the show has given her a “masculine” image from the very first time we saw her, when she favored beating her brothers at archery over joining Sansa at needlepoint — not to mention being called “boy” for a season or two. I don’t see why anyone would question her inclusion on a list of the sexually ambiguous. Right. Both she and Brienne both dress in masculine clothes and take on masculine gender roles, which is particularly notable for a medieval setting. This doesn’t mean they are necessarily gay, but it certainly would be no surprise to find out they were. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/389 "2017-08-19T22:00:02Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > SJW nonsense. > [@Acsenray](#): > > As others in this thread have shown, it’s entirely possible to make this argument without using terms like this. **It just discredits your argument**. And it supports my argument, which in fact was _not:_ > [@Riemann](#): > > a checklist of ridiculous accusations: misogyny, homophobia and racism. My actual argument: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > …this show is profoundly socially-conservative in its values, … > Socially conservative values manifest in the show in several ways, but a couple of illustrations: There are very few non-white people as long-term continuing characters, and those that exist are “properly” supportive of a white woman–essentially, they are her minions. There are very few gay characters, and those we see tend to die bloody and/or humiliating deaths. The entire post is reachable from the link, and clearly there are no “accusations” of “misogyny, homophobia and racism.” Instead there is the supported-by-evidence observation that “the show is profoundly socially conservative in its values.”\* _ **All storytelling reflects the values of those doing the telling.** _ In some cases, the creators consciously set out to persuade readers/viewers/listeners of the values they hold; in other cases, the manifestation of the creators’ values happens without conscious planning or intention. Examples of the first–the conscious intention to present values–are, on the progressive side, works like the books, plays and/or movies of _To Kill a Mockingbird_, _12 Angry Men_, _The Crucible_, and\* Philadelphia\*. Examples from the social-conservative side might include any work in which the status quo is seen as being vital to preserve against threats. Those threats often consist of an underclass (economic or gender or ethnic) failing to acknowledge the importance of maintaining that status quo–and this encompasses many works I happen to love, such as (arguably) most of Shakespeare. As I said in the post: > [@](#): > > There’s nothing inherently wrong with making a show for people who prefer to see homosexual characters come to unenviable ends, and prefer few non-white characters, etc. So those running around with their hair on fire have completely missed the point. Not surprising, I suppose. But for any who doubt the premise that social conservatism is an important element both in GoT and in the values of many of its fans—note that “SJW” is an epithet almost exclusively employed by…you guessed it: social conservatives. \*Did the poster realize that he or she was claiming that social conservatism is characterized by “misogyny, homophobia and racism”…? That’s a pretty severe stance to take. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/390 "2017-08-19T22:00:37Z")
Wasn’t Brienne in love with Renly Baratheon? I had a sense that she had feelings for him that went way beyond his status as king. In any event, the fact that we can’t even enjoy a fantasy show without taking a diversity head count is depressing. I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if all the characters were gay or none of them were. Life is too short to waste time applying purity tests to every little thing. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/391 "2017-08-19T22:03:10Z")
Brienne was in romantic love with Renly, remember. I think she and Jaime also had a few feelings going on. I think the only reason why that didn’t happen is because Jaime wouldn’t want to be seen riding a big, ugly girl. Plus, he does seem permanently and irrevocably attached to his sister. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/392 "2017-08-19T22:03:15Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > So those running around with their hair on fire have completely missed the point. Not surprising, I suppose. I don’t see anyone “running around with their hair on fire.” I see people presenting evidence that the allegations of homophobia and misogyny are bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/393 "2017-08-19T22:08:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Wasn’t Brienne in love with Renly Baratheon? I had a sense that she had feelings for him that went way beyond his status as king. You’re right. It certainly seemed as though the creators’ intention was to show that she had, at the very least, deep feeling for him of a romantic nature. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In any event, the fact that we can’t even enjoy a fantasy show without taking a diversity head count is depressing. I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if all the characters were gay or none of them were. Life is too short to waste time applying purity tests to every little thing. Can you explain what you mean by “applying [a] purity test”…? I gather you are referring to my post, but I’m not seeing what in that post is related to “purity test[ing].” It’s as if some people become enraged at any opinion holding that a work is ‘socially conservative.’ Why? What’s wrong with being socially conservative? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/394 "2017-08-19T22:09:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I don’t see anyone “running around with their hair on fire.” I see people presenting evidence that the allegations of homophobia and misogyny are bullshit. What allegations of homophobia and misogyny? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/395 "2017-08-19T22:10:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Wasn’t Brienne in love with Renly Baratheon? I had a sense that she had feelings for him that went way beyond his status as king. > [@Biggirl](#): > > Brienne was in romantic love with Renly, remember. Brienne was in love with Renly, but I don’t think it’s clear it was romantic love. She told a story of a ball she was invited to as a girl when all the boys made fun of her because of her size, but then Renly danced with her and shut them up. She may have just been grateful to him for his kindness. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/396 "2017-08-19T22:12:31Z")
Are you going to give us an example of proper female submission in the show? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/397 "2017-08-19T22:12:50Z")
I think the creators values reflect hatred of heterosexuality. Real hetero love? Why look at the siblings-- so devoted to each other! Marry for true love? Get your baby stabbed while in utero. At a wedding, no less. In fact, don’t go to weddings. Bad things happen when heteros get married. The Dothraki think it isn’t a good wedding at all unless 3 people die. Happily married? How 'bout we try to destroy your house and kill you and all your children? O.K., not all your children but you and your wife have got to go in a spectacular way. Wanna hetero marry? How 'bout marrying this dwarf from a family you hate? Yeah Sherrerd, you can type until you are blue in the fingers but you’ll still be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/398 "2017-08-19T22:16:37Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > What allegations of homophobia and misogyny? These: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > There are very few gay characters, and those we see tend to die bloody and/or humiliating deaths. > > … > > So, sure: I expect that one of the most prominent ‘morals’ of GoT, HBO version at least, will be that Women Just Aren’t Suited For Positions of Power. Virtually every viewer is looking forward to seeing Cersei degraded and demeaned before her inevitable death, perhaps at the hands of her brother (who in that case would be rightfully restoring the Natural Order of male control over unruly females). And we are already seeing Daenerys being shown up as a poor decision-maker. > > … > > And that’s what I expect to happen with the end of GoT, months and months from now—after many seasons of enduring the possibility that a woman might be a good leader, it will be shown that she really isn’t, after all. She will bend the knee to Jon, and this will be deeply thrilling to many in the audience. > > … > There’s nothing inherently wrong with making a show for people who prefer to see homosexual characters come to unenviable ends, and prefer few non-white characters, etc. But being honest about it seems like a reasonable position to take. If those aren’t accusations of homophobia, misogyny, and racism you’ve been doing a very poor job of communicating your point. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/399 "2017-08-19T22:32:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If those aren’t accusations of homophobia, misogyny, and racism you’ve been doing a very poor job of communicating your point. That’s because my point was _not_ an accusation of homophobia, misogyny, and racism. I’d still like to know why observations that a work is “socially conservative” is seen as being an “accusation.” Again: what’s wrong with being socially conservative? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/400 "2017-08-19T22:33:28Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I think the creators values reflect hatred of heterosexuality. Real hetero love? Why look at the siblings-- so devoted to each other! Marry for true love? Get your baby stabbed while in utero. At a wedding, no less. In fact, don’t go to weddings. Bad things happen when heteros get married. The Dothraki think it isn’t a good wedding at all unless 3 people die. > > Happily married? How 'bout we try to destroy your house and kill you and all your children? O.K., not all your children but you and your wife have got to go in a spectacular way. Wanna hetero marry? How 'bout marrying this dwarf from a family you hate? > > Yeah Sherrerd, you can type until you are blue in the fingers but you’ll still be wrong. About what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=21)