# Game of Thrones 7.05 "Eastwatch" 8/13/17 \[Show Discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585 "2017-08-13T22:26:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/401 "2017-08-19T22:37:53Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > That’s because my point was _not_ an accusation of homophobia, misogyny, and racism. What is it, then? Because as I said you are failing to communicate it. > [@](#): > > I’d still like to know why observations that a work is “socially conservative” is seen as being an “accusation.” Again: what’s wrong with being socially conservative? Because, according to what you’ve written, it’s misogynistic, homophobic, and racist. Social conservatism, according to you, means enjoying seeing homosexuals suffer painful and humiliating deaths, and women accepting their subjugation to men. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/402 "2017-08-19T22:39:22Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > …note that “SJW” is an epithet almost exclusively employed by…you guessed it: social conservatives… Nonsense. Describing your post as “SJW nonsense” does not imply that I am opposed to social justice, any more than defending a Nazi’s constitutional right to free speech would make me a Nazi. If you’re not familiar with the distinction between the pursuit of _actual_ social justice and the the derogatory sense of “social justice warrior”, the latter implies a sanctimonious agenda-driven authoritarian attitude, an obsession with identity politics to the exclusion of all else, and self-aggrandizing virtue signalling. I’m not suggesting that you’re guilty of all the above based on one post, but frankly I don’t think my application of the epithet “SJW nonsense” to that particular post was unfair. It was a screed of accusations of almost every conceivable social prejudice on the part of the writers that (so far as myself and other posters here are concerned) bear no resemblance whatsoever to the content of the show that we are watching. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/403 "2017-08-19T22:45:26Z")
I am so glad there is a new show tomorrow and then we can all argue about something with actual merit-- like potatoes. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/404 "2017-08-19T22:47:21Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It was a screed of accusations … Can you list the actual “accusations”? One by one? As opposed to simply quoting the entire post? If quoting the entire post is all you can do, then that will be an acknowledgment that you can find no actual accusations (let alone a “screed”). ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/405 "2017-08-19T22:49:02Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > … There are very few gay characters, and those we see tend to die bloody and/or humiliating deaths. … > \*Anticipating the inevitable reaction: > —Yes, lots of non-gay characters on the show experience bloody and/or humiliating deaths. But only ‘being gay’ is a reliable _predictor_ that the character will experience same. … Renly was killed by dark magic and Loras was disintegrated by wildfire. Neither one of these deaths were more bloody or humiliating than the average character’s death on this show. Also, how many Africans participated in the War of the Roses? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/406 "2017-08-19T22:51:44Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Can you list the actual “accusations”? One by one?.. If _another_ poster agrees with you that there are no accusations of misogyny, homophobia and racism implicit in your post, then I will play your game and cite them in detail. Absent that, no, I think this is disingenuous - I suggest you go back and read your own post again more carefully. Since every other reader here seems to have taken your comments in the same way, I don’t think the fault lies in my reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/407 "2017-08-19T22:58:21Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Can you list the actual “accusations”? One by one? As opposed to simply quoting the entire post? I listed some individual ones, and you failed to respond to it. Look, **Sherrerd** , if you’re going to make accusations about the show, then stand by them. Don’t play this silly game of “I didn’t say what I said” when we can all read your words. It serves no purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/408 "2017-08-19T23:09:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What is it, then? Because as I said you are failing to communicate it. I’d recommend you read post #389. I laid out the argument in the original post, #352, but expanded on it in #389: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > … _ **All storytelling reflects the values of those doing the telling.** _ > > In some cases, the creators consciously set out to persuade readers/viewers/listeners of the values they hold; in other cases, the manifestation of the creators’ values happens without conscious planning or intention. > > Examples of the first–the conscious intention to present values–are, on the progressive side, works like the books, plays and/or movies of _To Kill a Mockingbird_, _12 Angry Men_, _The Crucible_, and\* Philadelphia\*. Examples from the social-conservative side might include any work in which the status quo is seen as being vital to preserve against threats. Those threats often consist of an underclass (economic or gender or ethnic) failing to acknowledge the importance of maintaining that status quo–and this encompasses many works I happen to love, such as (arguably) most of Shakespeare. … This is what we see in GoT: ‘traditional values’ that are manifested in characters who live in a ‘traditional’ world. The proof or disproof of my stated opinions will come at the end of the series: I am predicting, based on the values I see demonstrated in the show, that at the end there will still be an Iron Throne, and a male who is highly likely to be Jon, upon it. I say ‘highly likely’ because I think there’s a non-zero chance that the creators will go for the bittersweet “he has died gloriously but his son will reign after him” ending. Still, Jon-on-the-throne seems most probable to me. > [@Colibri](#): > > Social conservatism, according to you, means enjoying seeing homosexuals suffer painful and humiliating deaths, and women accepting their subjugation to men. You have yet to disprove one of my main points (in the original post): that > [@Sherrerd](#): > > lots of non-gay characters on the show experience bloody and/or humiliating deaths. \*\*But only ‘being gay’ is a reliable predictor that the character will experience same. \*\*The Vulture has an interesting article that expands on this: > [http://www.vulture.com/2016/06/game-...y-problem.html](http://www.vulture.com/2016/06/game-...y-problem.html) You made the case that there are large numbers of gay characters (not entirely convincingly, but I’ll accept your numbers). However, you failed to address the ‘being gay is a predictor of humiliation/death’ point. That is, many characters in the show experience humiliation and/or death, but being known to be heterosexual doesn’t predict a bad end as well as does being known to be a homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/409 "2017-08-19T23:21:09Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > …The proof or disproof of my stated opinions will come at the end of the series: I am predicting, based on the values I see demonstrated in the show, that at the end there will still be an Iron Throne, and a male who is highly likely to be Jon, upon it… On the contrary. _My_ theory is that the writers are heavily biased in favor of characters who wear polka-dot underpants. If Jon Snow emerges victorious, _I_ will be vindicated. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/410 "2017-08-19T23:41:43Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I listed some individual ones, and you failed to respond to it. > Look, **Sherrerd** , if you’re going to make accusations about the show, then stand by them. Don’t play this silly game of “I didn’t say what I said” when we can all read your words. It serves no purpose. Colibri, here’s what you quoted and characterized as accusations: “Accusation” #1: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > There are very few gay characters, and those we see tend to die bloody and/or humiliating deaths. This is certainly an observation. Are all observations “accusations”? [ul] [li]The sky is blue.[/li][li]The third Terminator movie had substantial box office returns, but didn’t gross as much as did the first two Terminator movies.[/li][li]More top officials in the Trump Administration have left than is true for any previous Administration.[/li][/ul] Three observations. Are they all “accusations”? Are _any_ of them “accusations”? The answer will vary by how emotional readers are about the topics. Someone involved with the third Terminator movie, for example, might resent the implications he sees in the observation posted. But that doesn’t change the fact that the sentence itself is a statement of fact–an observation. It’s not an accusation. The same is true for “There are very few gay characters, and those we see tend to die bloody and/or humiliating deaths.” It’s an observation. Reaction to it depends on how emotionally-involving it is for readers. Observations are not accusations. “Accusation” #2: > [@](#): > > So, sure: I expect that one of the most prominent ‘morals’ of GoT, HBO version at least, will be that Women Just Aren’t Suited For Positions of Power. Virtually every viewer is looking forward to seeing Cersei degraded and demeaned before her inevitable death, perhaps at the hands of her brother (who in that case would be rightfully restoring the Natural Order of male control over unruly females). And we are already seeing Daenerys being shown up as a poor decision-maker. This paragraph contains an opinion about the plot currently being shown: [ul] [li]we are already seeing…poor decision-maker[/li][/ul] …an expression of opinion about viewers: [ul] [li]Virtually every viewer is looking forward to seeing Cersei degraded and demeaned before her inevitable death[/li][/ul] …and predictions about the plot: [ul] [li]one of the most prominent ‘morals’ of GoT…Aren’t Suited for Positions of Power[/li][li]perhaps at the hands of her brother …control over unruly females)[/li][/ul] These are opinions and predictions that, obviously, not everyone will share. But they are not “accusations.” They are opinions and predictions. “Accusation” #3: > [@](#): > > And that’s what I expect to happen with the end of GoT, months and months from now—after many seasons of enduring the possibility that a woman might be a good leader, it will be shown that she really isn’t, after all. She will bend the knee to Jon, and this will be deeply thrilling to many in the audience. This is a prediction. Are predictions = accusations? I suppose, as with observations, that if it’s something the hearer/reader is sufficiently emotional, then that hearer or reader might succumb to the temptation to label a prediction “an accusation.” That wouldn’t make predictions the same thing as accusations, though. For example, if someone predicted “Trump will resign by spring 2018,” that prediction might be greeted with outrage by Trump supporters. In an effort to express their anger, they might try the tactic of saying that the prediction was “an accusation” against Trump. The tactic wouldn’t convince unbiased observers, however, because it fails to be logical. Of what is Trump being accused? Who is doing the accusing? Predictions are not accusations. “Accusation” #4: > [@](#): > > There’s nothing inherently wrong with making a show for people who prefer to see homosexual characters come to unenviable ends, and prefer few non-white characters, etc. But being honest about it seems like a reasonable position to take. Who is being accused of something, here? And of what are they being accused? Please answer: who is being accused? and of what?—or drop your false claims about my posts. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/411 "2017-08-19T23:45:13Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I’d recommend you read post #389. I laid out the argument in the original post, #352, but expanded on it in #389: > > This is what we see in GoT: ‘traditional values’ that are manifested in characters who live in a ‘traditional’ world. > > The proof or disproof of my stated opinions will come at the end of the series: I am predicting, based on the values I see demonstrated in the show, that at the end there will still be an Iron Throne, and a male who is highly likely to be Jon, upon it. I say ‘highly likely’ because I think there’s a non-zero chance that the creators will go for the bittersweet “he has died gloriously but his son will reign after him” ending. Still, Jon-on-the-throne seems most probable to me. > > You have yet to disprove one of my main points (in the original post): that > > You made the case that there are large numbers of gay characters (not entirely convincingly, but I’ll accept your numbers). However, you failed to address the ‘being gay is a predictor of humiliation/death’ point. That is, many characters in the show experience humiliation and/or death, but being known to be heterosexual doesn’t predict a bad end as well as does being known to be a homosexual. Is that a no on an example of a proper submissive female? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/412 "2017-08-19T23:45:23Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > Renly was killed by dark magic and Loras was disintegrated by wildfire. Neither one of these deaths were more bloody or humiliating than the average character’s death on this show. > > Also, how many Africans participated in the War of the Roses? How many dragons participated in the War of the Roses? …As for your remark “neither one of these deaths were more bloody or humiliating than the average character’s death”—what’s it in reference to? I’ve made no claim about the deaths of gay characters being “more” bloody or humiliating than the deaths of non-gay characters. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/413 "2017-08-19T23:48:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is that a no on an example of a proper submissive female? Recall that my claim was that the show was smart in its presentation of the Daenerys story–that the suspense builds over the seasons as we see the possibility that the creators are _really_ showing an example of a just, wise female ruler. But is that how it will turn out? Thus the suspense. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/414 "2017-08-20T00:13:03Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Who is being accused of something, here? And of what are they being accused? > > Please answer: who is being accused? and of what?—or drop your false claims about my posts. I’ve already explained that how your “observations” are accusations of misogyny, homophobia, and racism against the show. I don’t care to keep explaining it repeatedly. It’s clear at this point that you don’t want to own your accusations, and for some reason would rather bob and weave about them and claim that in some way they are not accusations. There’s not a lot of point in engaging you further. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/415 "2017-08-20T00:25:30Z")
I didn’t think I’d ever want to see that argument that Joffrey was behind that damn dagger come up again, but here we are… ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/416 "2017-08-20T01:31:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Whatever. It seemed that Olyvar was preferentially homosexual, but would do whatever he was paid to do… Sounds about right, although in that sex scene w/ him, Oberyn, Ellaria, & one of the female prostitutes it was implied he wasn’t even able get an erection when Ellaria wanted to play w/ him. I doubt he’s hired to be with women very often, if ever. > [@Colibri](#): > > Brienne was in love with Renly, but I don’t think it’s clear it was romantic love. She told a story of a ball she was invited to as a girl when all the boys made fun of her because of her size, but then Renly danced with her and shut them up. She may have just been grateful to him for his kindness. It was more than her being grateful to her for his kindness; his kindness was in such contrast how every other man to visit Tarth treated her she seems to have convinced herself that he had feelings for her too. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/417 "2017-08-20T01:40:24Z")
Has anyone been treated kindly? Everyone on GOT seems to have horrible lives, some worse than others. So far only the Night King seems to have come out unscathed. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/418 "2017-08-20T01:42:58Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Has anyone been treated kindly? Everyone on GOT seems to have horrible lives, some worse than others. > > So far only the Night King seems to have come out unscathed. Hot Pie seems to be doing well for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/419 "2017-08-20T02:28:12Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Hot Pie seems to be doing well for himself. Nymeria is living the good life these days. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585/420 "2017-08-20T02:28:49Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I don’t see much sexual tension, but I _am_ assuming that the final episode of the series will contain a Restoration of the Natural Order scene–that is, after all the emphasis on Daenerys asking people to Bend the Knee, she will Bend the Knee to Jon (as his properly-submissive bride) and the vast majority of the audience will sigh with satisfaction that the world has been put right. I’ve only dipped my toe into the GoT fandom, but from what I’ve seen if that happened they would riot, especially the “YAAAS KHALEESI” contingent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-05-eastwatch-8-13-17-show-discussion/793585.md?page=22)