# Game of Thrones 7.06 "Beyond The Wall" 8/20/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 20, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223 "2017-08-20T22:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/341 "2017-08-25T02:59:09Z")
OK Riemann, the Waif giving herself a “face-ectomy” is easily one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/342 "2017-08-25T03:30:24Z")
> [@by-tor](#): > > OK Riemann, the Waif giving herself a “face-ectomy” is easily one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. I am blushing with pride at such an honor. But seriously, I’m not sure why you think it’s so stupid? This is not real life, these are not simple physical masks, they represent Faceless Men magic where people transform into other people. “Face-ectomy” was tongue-in-cheek, I’m talking about a magical process of giving up her identity, not literally slicing herself up in front of a mirror to leave an agonizing gory mess. For the waif, a trainee Faceless Man, why wouldn’t discarding her _own_ face represent the apotheosis of becoming no one? It’s far from clear than Jaqen has any “root” identity underneath, everything seems to be a mask. In any event, how does it rank in stupidity with multiple deep stabs to the gut healing up with a little bed rest and some soup? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/343 "2017-08-25T03:47:26Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > I don’t even care so much about the distances thing. What made this episode disappointing for me was the tired "last minute save " thing. I was sick of it when Bronn saved Jaime. And now this episode did it no less than **three** times at the end: Tormumd is almost dead…saved by The Hound! Everyone is almost dead… saved by Dany! Jon Snow is almost dead…saved by Benjen! > > I mean, come on, what kind of lame writing is that for this show?.. Much as I enjoy the show, I have to agree. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/344 "2017-08-25T04:36:23Z")
There is nothing at all to support the Arya=Waif thing and tons of counterevidence. It would be a completely unsupported random twist for the sake of being a twist, it would be cringe-inducing and story-destroying on the level of a twist from Lost. It would serve as a new low to the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/345 "2017-08-25T04:47:11Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > There is nothing at all to support the Arya=Waif thing and tons of counterevidence. There’s tons of counter-evidence _now_, but as I said I suggested it just after the fight happened - at which time it seemed like a GRRM-worthy twist, and could have rescued the incoherent Braavos storyline. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > It would be a completely unsupported random twist for the sake of being a twist, it would be cringe-inducing and story-destroying on the level of a twist from Lost. It would serve as a new low to the whole thing. Agreed. The theory is inconceivable now, with what we’ve seen of Arya since she returned to Westeros. The only way I could remotely imagine it being revealed now would be if GRRM had told the writers that this was his planned denouement, and they utterly screwed up the writing for Arya’s character in the interim. Which would indeed be cringe-worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/346 "2017-08-25T05:04:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Before the show started, [GRRM walked the showrunners through his notes and plans on the ending of the series](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-showrunners-know-how-687589). D&D know what ending GRRM has planned. They’re not flying blind, they just don’t have the detailed scenes and dialogue that they cribbed from in the early seasons. They only have the broad plot points, and are having trouble getting from A to B without resorting to tropes and contrivances. I can’t say I blame them. GRRM is having the same difficulties, that’s why The Winds of Winter _still_ isn’t published yet. I’m not sure we’re disagreeing. They knew the story arc and ending but they didn’t have what you call the detailed scenes and dialog and I call that the plot. They know where they need to go but don’t have ( whatever it is ) to pay attention to smaller details any more. Also, if they are following a storyline exactly as laid out by GRRM then any tropes they cling to were the ones he wanted in his story. It’s either that or they are flying blind plot wise. No real escaping that. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/347 "2017-08-25T12:59:16Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > I don’t even care so much about the distances thing. What made this episode disappointing for me was the tired "last minute save " thing. I was sick of it when Bronn saved Jaime. And now this episode did it no less than **three** times at the end: Tormumd is almost dead…saved by The Hound! Everyone is almost dead… saved by Dany! Jon Snow is almost dead…saved by Benjen! I mean, come on, what kind of lame writing is that for this show? > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Much as I enjoy the show, I have to agree [about the “last minute save” thing]. Ditto. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/348 "2017-08-25T13:28:34Z")
I would agree that the battles north of the wall seemed a bit too convinient, but have a possible explanation… if the Night King is a Greenseer much like Bran (which is supported by his ability to sense when Bran is scrying on him) then he could have known exactly why Jon and company had come north, and purposefully sent out one of his White Walkers along with a group of wights – one of whom was not his – in order to allow them to capture one, slowing them down. He then allowed Gendry to escape while purposefully trapping the others on an island (that he could have attacked with a slow stream of wights or with ranged weapons) as bait for Dany. In other words, the Night King knew the plan in advance and allowed it to succeed – ensured that it did, in fact – to lure a dragon north. Note his calm demeanor when his subordinate hands him a javelin that was already prepared and in place before the dragons appeared. Why? Perhaps because he needs a dragon to melt a hole in the wall… ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/349 "2017-08-25T14:32:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I would agree that the battles north of the wall seemed a bit too convinient, but have a possible explanation… if the Night King is a Greenseer much like Bran (which is supported by his ability to sense when Bran is scrying on him) then he could have known exactly why Jon and company had come north, and purposefully sent out one of his White Walkers along with a group of wights – one of whom was not his – in order to allow them to capture one, slowing them down. He then allowed Gendry to escape while purposefully trapping the others on an island (that he could have attacked with a slow stream of wights or with ranged weapons) as bait for Dany. In other words, the Night King knew the plan in advance and allowed it to succeed – ensured that it did, in fact – to lure a dragon north. Note his calm demeanor when his subordinate hands him a javelin that was already prepared and in place before the dragons appeared. Why? Perhaps because he needs a dragon to melt a hole in the wall… I agree. But I think it goes deeper. The NK has been manipulating events south of the wall through visions and such for decades specifically to select for Great Heroes to come to the fore. He’s done this because he wants to face off against Great Heroes who will do things like charge into one on one combat for Glory and Honor with no plan for what comes next. If all the leaders south of the wall were like Cercei, they would just assume that whatever was happening on the other side of the **magically impenetrable wall** was Someone Else’s Problem and do nothing. The NK would die of old age north of the wall, waiting for someone to fight. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/350 "2017-08-25T14:32:33Z")
I really hope this is the case as otherwise its a bit weak sauce. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/351 "2017-08-25T15:47:15Z")
Here’s a [decent argument](http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/08/25/here_s_why_arya_s_and_sansa_s_conflict_is_the_most_realistic_part_of_game.html) that the Sansa-Arya conflict is actually true to their characters and is the one realistic part of the episode. > [@](#): > > Fans love her, and don’t want to see her acting like an actual adolescent… This is not a psychologically healthy person, and it makes sense that, once reunited with her sister, the show’s original odd sibling out would continue to pursue her grudges against her far more glamorous and beloved older sibling, fate of the world be damned. > … > Arya threatening Sansa is akin to Ned warning Cersei, or Robb marrying for love, or Jon riding out in front of his army to save Rickon. It’s the choice that makes you scream at your television because the character you like is being _such_ a moron. > … > Yes, Arya is acting petty, mean, and lacking in compassion… This is because Arya _is_ petty, mean, and lacking in compassion. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/352 "2017-08-25T15:54:55Z")
I think the Arya is really the Waif theory is going to be one of those Internet theories that has almost zero chance of being right and when it’s proven wrong the people most invested in it will be irrationally mad it isn’t true. Also it’s a terrible idea. Arya is a core character that we’ve followed possibly more than any other in 7 seasons. Killing her off screen for a cheap twist would be shitty story telling and bad writing. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/353 "2017-08-25T16:17:17Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Here’s a [decent argument](http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2017/08/25/here_s_why_arya_s_and_sansa_s_conflict_is_the_most_realistic_part_of_game.html) that the Sansa-Arya conflict is actually true to their characters and is the one realistic part of the episode. It is consistent with who they were when they parted. Last time Arya saw Sansa, Sansa was an intolerable twit. “Ooh Joffrey is soooooo dreamy! All I want is to have his babies!” (Almost a literal quote though I haven’t looked it up.) But as a viewer, that is still not enough to get past the feeling that Arya should be able to deduce that that note was written under duress after everything went tits up. I don’t believe Arya would have concluded Sansa turned on her family. And I don’t expect a twist. I expect it is just sorry writing. Arya vs Sansa is real right now, but maybe they cool off rather than escalate? Perhaps it leads to one of them killing Littlefinger? (Still on Team Littlefinger:cool: myself) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/354 "2017-08-25T16:26:20Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > It is consistent with who they were when they parted. Last time Arya saw Sansa, Sansa was an intolerable twit. “Ooh Joffrey is soooooo dreamy! All I want is to have his babies!” (Almost a literal quote though I haven’t looked it up.) > > But as a viewer, that is still not enough to get past the feeling that Arya should be able to deduce that that note was written under duress after everything went tits up. I don’t believe Arya would have concluded Sansa turned on her family. > > And I don’t expect a twist. I expect it is just sorry writing. Arya vs Sansa is real right now, but maybe they cool off rather than escalate? Perhaps it leads to one of them killing Littlefinger? (Still on Team Littlefinger:cool: myself) Arya knows fully well that Sansa was coerced. She said so. From her point of view, that’s not enough of an excuse. Remember what she said—how bad was it? Did they stretch you on the rack? Did the do any of the horrible things that Arya has seen being done to people? Arya said it right out—I would have died rather than write it. Sure, there’s a lot she is missing, but it’s perfectly in line with her character. She’s a child, a twisted, angry child for whom murder is her favorite tool. And this letter proved to her everything she thinks is weak and horrible about Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/355 "2017-08-25T16:38:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Arya knows fully well that Sansa was coerced. She said so. From her point of view, that’s not enough of an excuse. Remember what she said—how bad was it? Did they stretch you on the rack? Did the do any of the horrible things that Arya has seen being done to people? Arya said it right out—I would have died rather than write it. > > Sure, there’s a lot she is missing, but it’s perfectly in line with her character. She’s a child, a twisted, angry child for whom murder is her favorite tool. And this letter proved to her everything she thinks is weak and horrible about Sansa. Yeah, and while I wouldn’t call Sansa’s behavior in S1 a betrayal, she certainly was on team Joffrey without coercion past the point at which his evilness was evident. We’ve seen her growth since then; Arya hasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/356 "2017-08-25T17:06:17Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > And I don’t expect a twist. I expect it is just sorry writing. Arya vs Sansa is real right now, but maybe they cool off rather than escalate? Perhaps it leads to one of them killing Littlefinger? (Still on Team Littlefinger:cool: myself) Didn’t Sansa send Brienne away to remove a protector of Arya? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/357 "2017-08-25T17:09:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Arya …[is] a child, a twisted, angry child for whom murder is her favorite tool. And this letter proved to her everything she thinks is weak and horrible about Sansa. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/358 "2017-08-25T17:27:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Arya knows fully well that Sansa was coerced. She said so. From her point of view, that’s not enough of an excuse. Remember what she said—how bad was it? Did they stretch you on the rack? Did the do any of the horrible things that Arya has seen being done to people? Arya said it right out—I would have died rather than write it. > > Sure, there’s a lot she is missing, but it’s perfectly in line with her character. She’s a child, a twisted, angry child for whom murder is her favorite tool. And this letter proved to her everything she thinks is weak and horrible about Sansa. It’s pretty inconsistent of Arya too. She worked for Tywin Lannister and could have killed him with her murder genie, or made the attempt herself. It seems much more like poor writing for manufactured drama. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/359 "2017-08-25T17:30:46Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > And I don’t expect a twist. I expect it is just sorry writing. Arya vs Sansa is real right now, but maybe they cool off rather than escalate? Perhaps it leads to one of them killing Littlefinger? (Still on Team Littlefinger:cool: myself) I used to be Team Littlefinger, but he lost me when he was creeping on Sansa back at the Eyrie. Sooooo uncomfortable. In fact, if they had left that part out, I think he’d be a more interesting character. Now he’s just a moustache-twirler to me. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223/360 "2017-08-25T17:49:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s pretty inconsistent of Arya too. She worked for Tywin Lannister and could have killed him with her murder genie, or made the attempt herself. > > It seems much more like poor writing for manufactured drama. I disagree that it’s poor writing, I think it fits very well with an immature teenager. She’s good at finding fault with others, but doesn’t recognize that same behavior in herself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-06-beyond-the-wall-8-20-17/794223.md?page=19)