# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/201 "2017-08-28T21:41:50Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > I loved Bronn’s theory of motivational cocks. It’s too bad Jaime didn’t bring him along to the North just for the banter. Jaime’s answer to Bronn, was maybe for family, and then the end scene with Theon with no dick fighting to regain the loyalty of his people and save his sister. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/202 "2017-08-28T21:43:32Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > But Cersei and her military plan is my biggest gripe about this episode. Her strategy is all kinds of stupid and makes zero sense. Hearken back to the wise words of [Tywin Lannister](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-fPqhXZrOE). Cersei is quite _clever_, but she’s not smart. Never has been, never will be. > [@](#): > > Instead - rather brilliantly, I think - they wrote Littlefinger’s arc this year as a perfect inversion of Ned’s Season 1 arc. The things Ned did well, that made him a success in the North - his sense of honor and duty, his physical strength, his steady and predictable nature - doomed him in the South. In exactly the same way, Littlefinger’s strengths - duplicity, scheming, playing on subtle urges and hidden animosity - made him invulnerable in the South but easy pickings in the North. Ned was helpless in the face of debauched schemers like Cersei Lannister… but none of Littlefinger’s tricks were worth two cents up against a literal prophet, a shapeshifting assassin, and a country full of plainspoken warriors with no time to waste on him. Well said. Littlefinger was one of my favorite characters - unlike Cersei he was both smart AND clever. But he erred fatally with Sansa by giving her to the Boltons, after which point any attempt to work her was going to be exponentially more difficult to say the least. Once she was in the position of relatively greater power his machinations just sealed his fate. If he had been wiser he would have retreated to the Vale the second Jon Snow left her in charge or alternatively stayed quiet and cryptic. But as **Dale Sams** put it, he just can’t resist trying to kick over every lego set he sees. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/203 "2017-08-28T21:59:50Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > There’s certainly some truth to this claim. That said, we don’t know the timeline. And Howland and Ned could easily have engaged in some chicanery to add plausibility to Ned’s story… ie, hide the baby from everyone for a few months after the Tower of Joy, and then stage a little scene in which they pay some woman in some town to pretend to be the mother in front of all Ned’s troops, or something like that. Certainly if plenty of people knew that the timeline was (1) Ned and Howland head to Tower of Joy, (2) Ned and Howland return from tower of joy with baby, (3) Ned claims that it’s his own bastard son; then they would immediately figure it out. I could easily see the timeline being that Ned and Howland Reed with baby Jon go directly back to the North without seeking out any of their allies in Robert’s Rebellion, who would have had their hands full establishing Robert as King, rewarding the ones who had fought for them and punishing the ones who had been on the other side, putting down the last flare-ups of resistance, and rebuilding a war-torn country. By the time word filtered down South that Ned had a bastard son, enough time could have passed that people’s minds wouldn’t automatically go to his sister’s death. Everyone would have been dealing with their own chaotic situations without devoting much thought to some bastard child, one of more than a few conceived in the upheaval of war. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/204 "2017-08-28T22:03:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As for the chains - the army of the dead was recently at Hardhome, which was a seaport that hosted large ships. Those could be anchor chains brought with them from Hardhome. It might also be why they went to Hardhome in the first place. [QUOTE=Sam Stone] Why a sunken ship? Harbors have large chains all over the place. If there was a ship docked there, it would have anchor chains attached to pylons on shore. Even if it was sunk, the chains would still be attached to the shore. For that matter, there could be chains in warehouses, chains being repaired in shops, whatever. Big ports have big chains around. [/QUOTE] [Hardhome](http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Hardhome?file=Hardhome_%28episode%29_.jpg) wasn’t a “seaport that hosted large ships.” Although it was the closest thing to a town Beyond the Wall, it was basically a small fishing village inhabited by wildlings. It had two small piers for little fishing boats. It wasn’t a place where large ships with monstrously huge anchor chains like the ones we saw would dock. It didn’t have warehouses or shops. And the Army of the Dead wasn’t “recently” at Hardhome. They destroyed it two full seasons ago. It’s taken them all this time to march down to Eastwatch. How long do you think it would take them to drag four giant chains down from there once they decided they would need them? Or have they been dragging them along for the last couple of years on the off chance a dragon might fall into a lake? There may be some way to fanwank where the chains came from, but Hardhome ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/205 "2017-08-28T22:05:26Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > The occasional wight appears agile but most of them especially in the last episode appeared very slow. If you have horse-archers they could kill the wights without being at much risk themselves.\*\* And the Dothraki are based on the Mongols though I don’t remember if any of them are horse-archers.\*\* Even regular archers, protected by infantry could do a huge amount of damage before the fighting begins. They are. Several of them showed off their fancy moves during the attack on the Loot Train. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/206 "2017-08-28T22:14:10Z")
I did really enjoy the episode, including the blue plasma-breathing dragon near the end. Less clear is how you work a plot around a guy who can literally keep track of everything happening, including Cersei’s fake deal. I wish in retrospect they’d made Bran’s abilities more draining on him. Meanwhile…what kinds of mischief can Arya get up to with Petyr’s face? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/207 "2017-08-28T22:15:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This was the weakest writing in the episode. Not only did Cersei in Bond-Villain fashion reveal her treacherous plans in detail to Jamie, she then let him walk out the door and join her enemies, fresh with the knowledge of exactly how she’s going to betray them. That was a pretty ridiculous way to move that plot forward, in an episode that was otherwise great. Except I think Jaime’s sense of honor means he won’t tell Dany and Jon what Cersei is intending. Still, if he shows up alone, they’ll figure out on their own that she’s not backing them. If Jaime wanted to, he could get many of the Lannister soldiers to join him when he goes north. They respect him enough to do so, even if that’s not what Cersei wanted. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/208 "2017-08-28T22:17:29Z")
Bran doesn’t seem to just “know” everything. He has to specifically look. As for events currently happening, he seems to only know them if he wargs into the ravens to see. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/209 "2017-08-28T22:30:24Z")
Has it been shown that Bran can use the Heart trees to see? I can’t remember. Not that there are any in the south. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/210 "2017-08-28T22:31:11Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I dunno. They seem pretty damn slow in this battle [shot](https://youtu.be/zan420gYTeQ?t=130).If they had been even moderately fast and skilled they would have easily overpowered the group. A few bows or spears would have been handy too. The wights are fast or slow depending on the dramatic needs of the scene. The ones that attacked Bran’s party and when Jojen was killed were extremely fast. They were very fast at the [Battle of Hardhome.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOjIVd_7bsw) But if you need some dramatic tension they will trudge along like Romero zombies. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/211 "2017-08-28T23:26:57Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > With 6 episodes left - > > If I was running the show: [deleted] > Roll credits. > 😃 silenus, could you please use spoiler boxes for actual spoiler content? You did this in the last thread. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/212 "2017-08-28T23:43:37Z")
If they do it my way, you’ll thank me! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/213 "2017-08-28T23:45:22Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > silenus, could you please use spoiler boxes for actual spoiler content? You did this in the last thread. You’re criticizing him for using a spoiler box in an (obvious) parody? I don’t understand why joke-hiding something that does _not_ need to be spoiler-boxed is a problem? Have I been whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/214 "2017-08-28T23:46:46Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Bran doesn’t seem to just “know” everything. He has to specifically look. As for events currently happening, he seems to only know them if he wargs into the ravens to see. I’m not sure what line divides the present from the past, but if he knows Littlefinger’s private comments to Ned Stark, he can know Cersei’s confession to Jaime. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/215 "2017-08-28T23:54:30Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You’re criticizing him for using a spoiler box in an (obvious) parody? Yes. He used it for just speculation in the last thread, and didn’t offer any hint as to what’s in it. [Here’s the post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20429883&postcount=173). Read on a little, and he offers a little bit of mea culpa. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand why joke-hiding something that does _not_ need to be spoiler-boxed is a problem? On it’s own? It’s not a problem. But his pattern of not knowing when to use them can be. Edit: And that’s all I really care to talk about it. If you’d like a more thorough conversation, feel free to open an ATMB thread on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/216 "2017-08-28T23:59:25Z")
I use them for anything other than straight analysis of aired episodes because there are people in these threads who go abso-fucking-lutely _apeshit_ at anything they consider spoilery, including the date an episode will air and who wrote the music. If you don’t like my caution, put me on “Ignore.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/217 "2017-08-29T00:04:49Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Edit: And that’s all I really care to talk about it. If you’d like a more thorough conversation, feel free to open an ATMB thread on the subject. I would take moderation that I didn’t understand to ATMB, not this. If you don’t care to explain why you think what he did is a problem (it’s not self-evident), then your comment is likely to be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/218 "2017-08-29T00:15:26Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I use them for anything other than straight analysis of aired episodes because there are people in these threads who go abso-fucking-lutely _apeshit_ at anything they consider spoilery, including the date an episode will air and who wrote the music. If you don’t like my caution, put me on “Ignore.” The key is to be very very clear why something is in a spoiler box. Compare the following three posts (which use a TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL MADE UP EXAMPLE, there is NO REAL INFORMATION AT ALL IN THESE FAKE EXAMPLES): Post #1: Hey guys, I just realized that if you freezeframe on one of the pages of the manuscript that Sam is reading, it literally spells out that Arya is going to die in Season 8 episode 1! Post #2: Hey guys, I just realized that if you freezeframe on one of the pages of the manuscript that Sam is reading, it literally spells out that Arya is going to die in Season 8 episode 1! Post #3: Hey guys, (spoilered because of information found in a freeze frame which might give away major plot elements from Season 8) I just realized that if you freezeframe on one of the pages of the manuscript that Sam is reading, it literally spells out that Arya is going to die in Season 8 episode 1! Post #1 is being a dick by not using spoiler boxes. Post #2 is being a dick by just leaving a spoiler box there with no context. Should I open it? What’s in it? I dunno, so I won’t open it no matter what, because even if I’m someone who would want to know about this freeze frame, for all I know the spoiler box contains leaked information from next season’s scripts, which I would not want to see. Post #3 is absolutely the way to go. That said, while I think that spoiler boxes are generally easy and straightforward, I do agree that personal speculation is one of the trickiest-to-define edge cases. If we’re just shooting the shit about who’s likely to end up on the iron throne, and you think it will be Sansa, just based on your own speculation, even I (generally a spoiler nazi) see no reason to spoiler that. On the other hand, if you have a crazy idea about a super insane novel twist that might happen near the end of the show, posting it unspoiled is a bit like saying, out loud, “oh, damn, I wonder if he’s been dead all along” in a movie theater. Even if it’s honestly just a guess, it’s a guess which can’t be unheard, and which totally alters someone’s experience of the artistic work in question. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/219 "2017-08-29T00:20:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Compare the following three posts… Thanks, that’s helpful. I didn’t think silenus’ post in this thread fell into either of your “being a dick” categories. It was (to me) very obvious that it was a joke (there’s even a smiley), and that it was parody-spoilering of preposterous things that obviously aren’t really going to happen. But I guess there’s sensitivity from prior threads, and perhaps avoidance of all doubt (at the expense of some humor) is the only way to keep everyone happy. I do agree that complete failure to indicate what’s going to be inside a spoiler box is frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/220 "2017-08-29T00:23:24Z")
Where is the dragon pit where they all met? Right outside the city walls? > [@silenus](#): > > And Tormund fucked a bear once. That experience might come in handy when “handling” Brienne. 😉 She could tell him about the time she almost got eaten by a bear. He will be very excited until he learns that she is not being euphemistic but was almost devoured. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > They called it making the 8 if they banged a girl from all 7 kingdoms and I guess 1 other place - maybe Kings’ landing? The 7 kingdoms is a long-obsolete name. There are 9 provinces currently - the Riverlands and Iron Islands were 1 of the kingdoms, and the Crownlands (geographically small) were carved out by Aegon. > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Bran doesn’t seem to just “know” everything. He has to specifically look. As for events currently happening, he seems to only know them if he wargs into the ravens to see. I thought that was pretty important. He has a limited omniscience. He doesn’t know the last time you pooped unless he cares to look. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=12)