# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/221 "2017-08-29T02:10:23Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Cersei believed him that he was the only thing stopping Danaerys from torching the city. Killing Tyrion is suicide. Good point. Cersei’s pregnancy is making her less fatalistic. > [@adaher](#): > > …Good to see Jamie finally grow a pair. So is all of Cersei’s subterfuge overruled and the Lannister armies march north, or is Jamie on his own? That will be awkward. “I pledged to ride north. Didn’t say I was bringing an army with me.” Jamie’s riding north alone. The Golden Company is still in Essos so at this point all Cersei has is the Lannister troops, the Gold Cloaks (ie the closest thing Kings’ Landing) and a small Queensguard (her bodyguards). If Jamie was able to get the Lannister troops to mutiny & go with him then Cersei would’ve essentially just lost the Iron Throne. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > …So was Cersei legitimately offering her help before then, but then only falsely offering it later? If not, if it was a ruse all along, then there was no reason for her to walk out when Jon refused the offer - she would still agree to help and send them on their way, still planning to betray them… Maybe she always planned to agree to send help then renege, but Jon pledging loyalty to Daenerys enraged her so much she lost control & stormed off in a tantrum nearly sabotaging her own scheme until she lucked out and Tyrion showed up trying to get her to “change her mind”. > [@adaher](#): > > Notice how The Mountain didn’t put himself between Cersei and the wight? Significant, or just the show being dramatic? He wasted no time intercepting his brother. > > If it is significant, I wonder if the Mountain identifies more with the dead than the living at this point? Just how exactly did Qyburn reanimate the Mountain? Was it somehow related to whatever magic powers the Wight Walkers & wights, or an entirely different form of necromancy? What happens if the Mountain get’s within control distance of a White Walker? > [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > I’m suspicious that Cersei actually did get her vengeance on Tyrion. The camera lingered a bit on the pitcher of wine he poured himself a glass from. Then he pours her a glass as well, but she never drinks from it. Sure this could be part of Tyrion figuring out she’s pregnant, but I doubt knowledge of fetal alcohol syndrome is a thing in Westeros. Did she give him a slow acting poison, knowing that killing him immediately would give away her plans to betray the truce? The simplest explanation is that the servants make sure there’s at least one pitcher of wine in every room Cersei’s expected to set foot in right down to the privy. I doubt the maesters are aware of fetal alcohol syndrome, thought they’d probably advise pregnant women from drinking to excess. It was the changes in her behavior and the say she subconsciously touched her stomach at one point which clued Tyrion in, not her turning down a glass of wine. > [@Bricker](#): > > The rules of criminal and appellate procedure in the North are a bit . . . stark. I was expecting Littlefinger to demand trial by combat, and then for Sansa to immediately name Arya as her champion. > [@snoe](#): > > Total tangent: if the zombies, er, wights, can’t swim, how’d they get those big-ass chains around their new dragon, to drag it out of the frozen lake? > My guess is that “they can’t swim” was a “listen, jackass, FOCUS” answer, so … I do think the zombies can swim. It be funny if Euron found out the hard way that they can just walk along the ocean floor like in **Word War Z** (yeah, I know why that wouldn’t be practical). > [@treis](#): > > In season 1 Ned and Robert had a discussion about the various whores they screwed. I don’t think the idea that Ned fathered a bastard looks unusual to any of these characters. Raising a bastard in the way Ned did is hugely unusual for someone in his position. It does fit in with Ned’s character though… I think people are way overthinking how anyone could possibly believe Ned could father a child out of wedlock. First of all it’s not really considered shameful or dishonorable for a highborn man to that that, and he was a teenager when he did. Raising his bastard in his own household probably is considered very odd outside of Dorne though; I imagine usually recognized bastards get fostered our or the mother just get’s an allowance. Also the way Ned kept Jon’s mother’s identity such a big secret was a huge red flag that she was a highborn woman; there’s no reason anyone would care that much about a lowborn woman’s reputation. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > …I thought that was pretty important. He has a limited omniscience. He doesn’t know the last time you pooped unless he cares to look. That he has to care to look is a biggie. I think as Bran’s powers develop more an more the less he’s going to care about mortal affairs, even if those mortals are his own family. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/222 "2017-08-29T02:18:34Z")
> [@treis](#): > > In season 1 Ned and Robert had a discussion about the various whores they screwed. I don’t think the idea that Ned fathered a bastard looks unusual to any of these characters. If I recall that conversation correctly, Ned never actually admitted to having sex with whores etc. He just let Robert do all the boasting. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/223 "2017-08-29T02:26:29Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Thanks, that’s helpful. > > I didn’t think silenus’ post in this thread fell into either of your “being a dick” categories. It was (to me) very obvious that it was a joke (there’s even a smiley), and that it was parody-spoilering of preposterous things that obviously aren’t really going to happen. > > But I guess there’s sensitivity from prior threads, and perhaps avoidance of all doubt (at the expense of some humor) is the only way to keep everyone happy. I do agree that complete failure to indicate what’s going to be inside a spoiler box is frustrating. I think it’s always been clear that a spoiler is something that is _actual knowledge_ rather than speculation of any kind. Mere speculation isn’t a spoiler has always been a rule here. But, yes, it’s dickish not to offer context that helps you decide whether to open the spoiler box. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/224 "2017-08-29T02:28:19Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Yes. And then put it back in the sheath without wiping it. Bothered the neck out of me. I noticed that too - I think the fanwank answer is that a Faceless Man is so fast that no blood got on the blade. Or maybe Valyrian steel doesn’t hold blood on the blade. Although it always seems bad ass when someone wipes their blade before resheathing it. But of course the Faceless aren’t much into flash. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/225 "2017-08-29T02:36:50Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > …Just how exactly did Qyburn reanimate the Mountain? Was it somehow related to whatever magic powers the Wight Walkers & wights, or an entirely different form of necromancy? What happens if the Mountain get’s within control distance of a White Walker?.. Both angles here are so interesting that I think it’s likely one or both will take place. Qyburn inspecting the severed & wiggling wight hand with fascination is surely a hint at this. On the one hand - we could have Qyburn either challenging the WWs for control of existing wights, or creating his own army; or controlling the existing wight dragon, or killing another dragon and reanimating it. On the other hand - Cersei’s ultimate fate could involve her giving the Mountain a kill order, only to see his eyes turn blue through the helmet… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/226 "2017-08-29T02:47:28Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Although it always seems bad ass when someone wipes their blade before resheathing it. Not as badass as licking it.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/227 "2017-08-29T03:04:02Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Was the actor playing Rhaegar the same guy that played Viserys? the similarity was remarkable. I thought that, also the actress that played Lyanna was one of the sand snakes. All this talk of Brienne and Tormund, but what I’m hoping for now is Brienne and Jaime. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/228 "2017-08-29T03:24:14Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I think people are way overthinking how anyone could possibly believe Ned could father a child out of wedlock. First of all it’s not really considered shameful or dishonorable for a highborn man to that that, and he was a teenager when he did. Raising his bastard in his own household probably is considered very odd outside of Dorne though; I imagine usually recognized bastards get fostered our or the mother just get’s an allowance. Also the way Ned kept Jon’s mother’s identity such a big secret was a huge red flag that she was a highborn woman; there’s no reason anyone would care that much about a lowborn woman’s reputation. The issue is not whether Ned having a bastard something people would be shocked by, it not per se, he is a lord, they do that all the time. It’s the cumulative effect of multiple things, a famously straitlaced man claiming to have a bastard right after his imprisoned-as-a -slave-by-a Targaryean sister, dies right after he meets her. He refuses to tell anyone who the mother is and insists on raising the child with his trueborn kids, humiliating his lady wife. Did they think he’d picked up Dornish custom when he was sent to pacify Dorne? We know at least that Stannis had his doubts as to the official story. Tywin, Varys, Littlefinger, smarts men who see through most plots and are good at identifying danger, don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/229 "2017-08-29T03:29:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > …That felt like false drama. Cersei wasn’t demanding he bend the knee to her, just that he take no part in the conflict after that (much like his Night’s Watch vows). He could’ve asked Dany if that was an acceptable term for the truce. Instead he was like “nah son I can’t bend the knee to you even though you didn’t ask because I already bent the knee” which just fucked things up for no reason and everyone hated him for it, including Dany… Yeah, my son and I immediately noticed that. Dany could’ve just jumped up and said, “No prob, Bob, I release you from your oath of fealty,” but that would’ve been too easy. > [@shantih](#): > > Loved Sam’s interaction with Bran; Sam’s pleasant cheerfulness was a delightful contrast to Bran’s flat affect and mystical solemnity. > > Bran: I’m the three-eyed raven now. > > Sam: Oh! (beat) I don’t know what that means… Yes, that was great. Bran: “I see everything now.” Sam (smiling and thinking): _Wellllllll OK then, how nice for you. Weirdo._ > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > One funny little bit was when Sam was talking to [Bran] and said to him, “Did you see that in one of your visions?” and by way of reply [Bran] just held up the Ravengram. Also a nice comic moment. > [@Quimby](#): > > …Beyond Cersei, the person whose reaction I was interested in seeing going into this week was Cersei’s pet Mad Scientist. He knows how to control Undead things. They aren’t the same as the Night King and the wights but you have to wonder if his knowledge could actually come in handy if Cersei had legitimately thrown in with them. I was waiting for him to put a piece of the wight in his pocket for study later but unless I missed it, that didn’t happen… Correct. Jon took the still-moving hand from Maester Mengele and burned it. > [@Quimby](#): > > …I don’t think Tyrion was jealous of Jon as someone above suggested. I think he just knows that allies fucking makes for complications they don’t need right now… I think it’s both. He’s a bit in love with her too, and can’t help but feel some twinges at knowing she’s hooked up with someone else. > [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > A really minor point, but I don’t believe Cersei would have ever entered the Dragon Pit BEFORE Dany was there. She’s the monarch, on her own ground. If anyone gets the grand entrance/no waiting around like a flunky, it’s her. Right. It’s all about status. The most powerful person in the room, er, Dragon Pit waits for no one; they wait for _her_. > [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > …Here’s the smart play [for Cersei]: Agree to play nice with everyone and consider it a massive scouting project. Find the weaknesses in your enemies by insisting you place your general in their ranks. There is your trusted spy on the inside. Quietly gather your massive mercenary army while sacrificing the redshirt army you currently have. Then, once the zombie army is dead (who you already recognize is a threat), you pull a red wedding on the celebration party and straight up murder everyone. If some of them happen to get away, who cares? You have a massive mercenary army at your beck and call… As Tywin noted awhile back, Cersei isn’t as smart as she thinks she is. > [@Bricker](#): > > The rules of criminal and appellate procedure in the North are a bit . . . stark. Nice. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You forgot: > > (•_•) > ( •_•)\>⌐■-■ > (⌐■\_■) > > YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!! Gotta put a button on that scene: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJSqkwyL1Zo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJSqkwyL1Zo) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/230 "2017-08-29T03:39:51Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > They called it making the 8 if they banged a girl from all 7 kingdoms and I guess 1 other place - maybe Kings’ landing? I believe it was the seven kingdoms plus the Riverlands. The original seven kingdoms were — 1. The North (Stark) 2. The Vale (Arryn) 3. The Islands and Rivers (Greyjoy) 4. The Westerlands (Lannister) 5. The Reach (Tyrell) 6. The Stormlands (Baratheon) 7. Dorne (Martell) The Riverlands (Tully) were split off from the Kingdom of the Islands and Rivers after they all stopped being independent kingdoms. So with the Riverlands and the Crownlands (Kings Landing), there are actually nine territories in the Seven Kingdoms. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/231 "2017-08-29T03:40:20Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Right. It’s all about status. The most powerful person in the room, er, Dragon Pit waits for no one; they wait for _her_. I think Cersei is going to pissed at one or more of her courtiers - my guess is that she thought that Dany had entered with her entourage. I believe she asked Tyrion where she was. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/232 "2017-08-29T03:49:24Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > They called it making the 8 if they banged a girl from all 7 kingdoms and I guess 1 other place - maybe Kings’ landing? Oh and that’s not from a conversation with Ned. Robert is talking to Renly and Ser Barristan Selmy ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/233 "2017-08-29T04:02:16Z")
Oh, I didn’t like Bran calling him Jon Sand. We already know he was born in the south, i.e. anywhere but the north. Sure Dorne wasn’t the first suspect. But he was Snow because he was of the north, period. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/234 "2017-08-29T05:16:42Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > But he was Snow because he was of the north, period. Actually, his name would be Jon Waters (heh) as he was presumed to be a bastard of the reigning dynasty, and therefore of the Crownlands. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/235 "2017-08-29T05:39:37Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Oh, I didn’t like Bran calling him Jon Sand. We already know he was born in the south, i.e. anywhere but the north. Sure Dorne wasn’t the first suspect. But he was Snow because he was of the north, period. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > Actually, his name would be Jon Waters (heh) as he was presumed to be a bastard of the reigning dynasty, and therefore of the Crownlands. My understanding is that the name derives from the place of birth, not who the parents were. So Jon Sand would be correct for a bastard born in Dorne. Ned never revealed the place of Jon’s birth, so he was Snow by default. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/236 "2017-08-29T05:54:15Z")
Coming up from Dorne with a baby would be a big hint though. Ned was sent there to deal with any remaining resistance. That was not a secret. Not the fact he fought Ser Arthur. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/237 "2017-08-29T07:06:16Z")
Incidentally about a year ago a poster on Reddit posted these spoilers. Universally panned. Until the season began, [when it was shown to be more and more accurate.](https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/57g8yf/compilation_of_spoilers_by_awayforthelads/) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/238 "2017-08-29T11:26:22Z")
So… Aegon, huh? I guess we just saw an Egg getting laid. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/239 "2017-08-29T12:28:35Z")
I have a vague memory that when Ned returned to Winterfell after Robert’s Rebellion, Jon wasn’t an infant. He was a few years old already. But I’m not sure about that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/240 "2017-08-29T13:42:50Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I did really enjoy the episode, including the blue plasma-breathing dragon near the end. Less clear is how you work a plot around a guy who can literally keep track of everything happening, including Cersei’s fake deal. I wish in retrospect they’d made Bran’s abilities more draining on him. > > Meanwhile…what kinds of mischief can Arya get up to with Petyr’s face? Bran’s not omniscient, he does have to have some idea what he’s looking for. And ooh, Arya using Baelish’s face? Intriguing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=13)