# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/241 "2017-08-29T14:05:54Z")
Given that she just killed him in front of a roomful of people who have zero incentive to keep their mouths shut, I’d say Littlefinger’s face value is nil. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/242 "2017-08-29T14:10:34Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Well said. Littlefinger was one of my favorite characters - unlike Cersei he was both smart AND clever. But he erred fatally with Sansa by giving her to the Boltons, after which point any attempt to work her was going to be exponentially more difficult to say the least. Once she was in the position of relatively greater power his machinations just sealed his fate. If he had been wiser he would have retreated to the Vale the second Jon Snow left her in charge or alternatively stayed quiet and cryptic. But as **Dale Sams** put it, he just can’t resist trying to kick over every lego set he sees. Littlefinger thought he loved Kat and Sansa but what he really did was desire them. He would never have conspired against the family of someone he actually loved or given someone he loved to the Boltons. Because Sansa knew actual love from her father, she could never trust Littlefinger when he said he loved her. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/243 "2017-08-29T14:29:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I have a vague memory that when Ned returned to Winterfell after Robert’s Rebellion, Jon wasn’t an infant. He was a few years old already. But I’m not sure about that. Kat says Ned brought back a baby. Plus Jon and Rob are almost the same age, so he was very young. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/244 "2017-08-29T14:38:35Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Given that she just killed him in front of a roomful of people who have zero incentive to keep their mouths shut, I’d say Littlefinger’s face value is nil. Eh. If you’re a nobleman in King’s Landing and you hear a rumor that Baelish was killed in Winterfell, but you see him standing in front of you, are you more likely to disregard the rumor or believe the person is front of you is a teen girl wearing a magic face disguise? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/245 "2017-08-29T14:40:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did we get an answer to this question [of where Jaime is going], or do we just have to wait for the final season? Final season. Presumably he’s heading north to keep his word, even if his sister, Dumbass Lying Queen Bitch of Westeros, won’t keep hers. > [@AK84](#): > > …Ned Stark, a notoriously upright man emerges from Dorne with a dead sister who had just been with [Rhaegar] a year and a half and totally coincidentally a baby whom he calls his bastard, whose mother he refuses to discuss. Jon might as well have had neon signs flashing “[Targaryen] baby” on him, yet no one makes the connection? > > Tywin should/would have realized the truth in about 30 seconds and had the Mountain pay them a little visit. I dunno. It took legions of GOT fans quite awhile to figure it out. This might be of interest - the actor who played the crown prince: [Who Plays Rhaegar Targaryen on Game of Thrones? | POPSUGAR Entertainment](https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Who-Plays-Rhaegar-Targaryen-Game-Thrones-43942732) > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > …And the door towards a Tormund/Brienne romance opened a little wider in this episode, as Brienne made it clear that she was no longer bound by the petty constraints of Westerosi society. “Fuck Honor”, I believe she said. Wasn’t that basically the same thing that Tormund said to Jon when he talked to him about bending the knee to [Daenerys]? > > The old Brienne would never have considered a crass, uneducated wildling as anything other than an object of scorn or pity (or just not worthy of even thinking about). The new Brienne? The one that only cares about the living vs the dead? A guy like Tormund might be right up her alley… If honor makes you do dumb things that will lead to the death of millions, even Brienne will see its limits - and say so. And yes, I’m still hoping that she and Tormund end up together. They’re two of my favorite characters. > [@storyteller0910](#): > > …rather brilliantly, I think - they wrote Littlefinger’s arc this year as a perfect inversion of Ned’s Season 1 arc. The things Ned did well, that made him a success in the North - his sense of honor and duty, his physical strength, his steady and predictable nature - doomed him in the South. In exactly the same way, Littlefinger’s strengths - duplicity, scheming, playing on subtle urges and hidden animosity - made him invulnerable in the South but easy pickings in the North. Ned was helpless in the face of debauched schemers like Cersei Lannister… but none of Littlefinger’s tricks were worth two cents up against a literal prophet, a shapeshifting assassin, and a country full of plainspoken warriors with no time to waste on him. > > Loved it. Well put, and I agree. > [@Colibri](#): > > The way Littlefinger’s eyes flicker at the moment he realizes that his secret conversations were known was one of the best moments of the episode for me… Even better, for me, was when he closed his eyes in despairing recognition as Sansa quoted him about his “little game” for figuring out people’s motivations. That whole scene was simply awesome - an acting masterclass by Aidan Gillen, as I wrote before. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/246 "2017-08-29T15:04:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Bran’s not omniscient, he does have to have some idea what he’s looking for. true, Bran didn’t have a vision of the Rhaegar Stark wedding until Sam prompted it by mentioning the annulment documents ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/247 "2017-08-29T15:05:43Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > true, Bran didn’t have a vision of the Rhaegar Stark wedding until Sam prompted it by mentioning the annulment documents He’s basically the Google of omniscience. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/248 "2017-08-29T16:16:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Maybe she always planned to agree to send help then renege, but Jon pledging loyalty to Daenerys enraged her so much she lost control & stormed off in a tantrum nearly sabotaging her own scheme until she lucked out and Tyrion showed up trying to get her to “change her mind”. Cersei seemed to have manipulated the entire meeting. Just as she planned for Euron to storm off early, her own initial walk away after Jon revealed he pledged loyalty to Dani seemed to be staged too. She seemed to think that any pledge she made about Lannister forces wouldn’t be believed if she gave in too quickly or easily. Given all of the clues she left for Tyrion about her pregnancy, she seemed to have planned to reveal that too as a good excuse for how she could be “convinced” to actually join an allied war effort. To make Tyrion not only feel smart for connecting the dots (letting Tyrion feel clever seems to be the best way to manipulate him, as the slaver cities did when they accepted his terms for peace initially in the absence of Dani), but also let him feel like he could manipulate Cersei through her feelings of vulnerability concerning her child. ---
**Author:** ![ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/249 "2017-08-29T16:34:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Oh and that’s not from a conversation with Ned. Robert is talking to Renly and Ser Barristan Selmy Also Lancel Lannister is very obviously within earshot. The Eight are The Seven Kingdoms plus The Riverlands. Which I guess never was a separate kingdom. Possibly partitioned off into a new “administrative” segment sometime in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/250 "2017-08-29T17:20:49Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Eh. If you’re a nobleman in King’s Landing and you hear a rumor that Baelish was killed in Winterfell, but you see him standing in front of you, are you more likely to disregard the rumor or believe the person is front of you is a teen girl wearing a magic face disguise? Given Littlefinger’s betrayal of the Lannisters to side with the Starks, his value in King’s Landing is pretty much nil anyway. Cersei would have him killed in a minute. I suppose Arya-disguised-as-Littlefinger might get close to Cersei by pretending to be betraying the Starks once again, but it seems there would be easier and less risky ways to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/251 "2017-08-29T17:52:45Z")
So, is Euron really going to pick up the Golden Company? I know that was his and Cersei’s plan (although he was presumably going to storm off for some other reason - maybe Cersei shutting him down again for picking at Theon or Tyrion). But I could legitimately see him thinking ‘fuck it, I’m not fighting undead’ after the demo, and really taking his ships and going home after being told the wight’s couldn’t swim (and not thinking that maybe they can walk under water). This would make Theon finding him on the Yara rescue mission more believable, also. I don’t believe the above, but it would make a nice twist in Cersei’s plan. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/252 "2017-08-29T17:59:33Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Both angles here are so interesting that I think it’s likely one or both will take place. Qyburn inspecting the severed & wiggling wight hand with fascination is surely a hint at this. > > On the one hand - we could have Qyburn either challenging the WWs for control of existing wights, or creating his own army; or controlling the existing wight dragon, or killing another dragon and reanimating it. > > On the other hand - Cersei’s ultimate fate could involve her giving the Mountain a kill order, only to see his eyes turn blue through the helmet… I think the way Cersei now dresses as queen is definitely reminiscent of the Night King. I wonder if it is foreshadowing that we could see her (and her ominous Queensguards) either voluntarily or involuntarily joining the Night King, perhaps at the urging of Qyburn. He still has some role to play since he has been hanging around onscreen without doing much recently. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/253 "2017-08-29T18:06:54Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Instead - rather brilliantly, I think - they wrote Littlefinger’s arc this year as a perfect inversion of Ned’s Season 1 arc. The things Ned did well, that made him a success in the North - his sense of honor and duty, his physical strength, his steady and predictable nature - doomed him in the South. In exactly the same way, Littlefinger’s strengths - duplicity, scheming, playing on subtle urges and hidden animosity - made him invulnerable in the South but easy pickings in the North. Ned was helpless in the face of debauched schemers like Cersei Lannister… but none of Littlefinger’s tricks were worth two cents up against a literal prophet, a shapeshifting assassin, and a country full of plainspoken warriors with no time to waste on him. I would’ve bought that, if what brought Littlefinger down had been northern stoicism and honor; but the analogy breaks down in that he’s basically just duped by a couple of (compared to him) amateur schemers, the magical mystery solving Stark siblings. I thought Littlefinger’s ending was far too mediocre for such a great character. It sort of seemed like the writers didn’t really know what to do with him anymore, and well, it’s the season finale and there’s a death slot to fill, so off he goes, after having basically just kind of smirkingly hung around Winterfell all season. To me, it demonstrates what a different show this has become: from being driven by character and narrative, to one driven by plot needs, connecting events in whatever way possible. Those events are often pretty awesome, and it’s still a fun show to watch, but I would’ve enjoyed some more Littlefinger (and I wouldn’t have minded if Jaime filled the death slot—that would’ve packed some punch, at least). That doesn’t mean I’d necessarily have expected Littlefinger to prevail in the end, or even just to get a shot at the throne—it would’ve been entirely fitting if he, seemingly all set to seize power, had been undone by something entirely random, a stray arrow, whatever, what with all his ‘chaos is a ladder’-shtick. Although a part of me had still been hoping for a great Varys vs. Littlefinger endgame, preferably with some upsets as to who’s been on whose side all along, and which of those sides we’re supposed to root for. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/254 "2017-08-29T18:09:58Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > So, is Euron really going to pick up the Golden Company? No reason not to, really\*. Since he savaged the alliance fleet I presume he doesn’t have a lot to fear in terms of being ambushed by enemy naval forces. He can always fuck off to Iron Islands after transporting the mercenaries and watch how things unfold. That way he keeps his options open. It is only when called to actually engage somebody again that he is going to have to carefully consider if it is worth it. - Only exception is dragon attack, which he’d be almost defenseless against. But that is likely a risk worth taking if he thinks a distracted Daenarys believed their little act. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/255 "2017-08-29T18:31:25Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I would’ve bought that, if what brought Littlefinger down had been northern stoicism and honor; but the analogy breaks down in that he’s basically just duped by a couple of (compared to him) amateur schemers, the magical mystery solving Stark siblings. > > I thought Littlefinger’s ending was far too mediocre for such a great character. Yup and it also undid a lot of the season 7 Winterfell plot in the most perfunctory manner. Littlefinger had successfully plotted to raise Arya’s suspicions about Sansa. And Sansa had discovered Arya’s secret to her horror. And somehow all that was resolved off-screen and Littlefinger was disposed off in a few minutes of screen time. It was completely out of proportion to both the importance of the character and the events of the season. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/256 "2017-08-29T18:45:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So… Aegon, huh? > > I guess we just saw an Egg getting laid. The grand finale will consist of Cerie’s and Danyrais’s babies fighting for the Iron Throne. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/257 "2017-08-29T18:51:42Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I would’ve bought that, if what brought Littlefinger down had been northern stoicism and honor; but the analogy breaks down in that he’s basically just duped by a couple of (compared to him) amateur schemers, the magical mystery solving Stark siblings. He screwed himself when he told Sansa about his ‘little game’ in attempt to finally turn her against/eliminate Arya. Sansa, no longer the naif he thinks of her as at some level, applied it to him (he startled a bit when she quoted that back to him). From there, it takes no great leaps to get to her talking with Bran and Arya about it. I don’t know if Sansa knew/believed in the Three Eyed Raven prior, but it is perfectly reasonable for Bran to share knowledge, convince her of what he can do and then together they come up with the plan to eliminate Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/258 "2017-08-29T18:52:54Z")
From what Vox has reported about the coming books vs. the TV series, Martin has actually provided little guidance. Just a few plot twists and character’s endgames. The rest they’ve been left to make up, in many cases, stories for major characters that Martin hadn’t figured out yet. So that probably explains why the showrunners are just trying to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. They are having to make up too much stuff on the fly at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/259 "2017-08-29T19:44:35Z")
Why in the world would you post that here? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/260 "2017-08-29T19:59:28Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I would’ve bought that, if what brought Littlefinger down had been northern stoicism and honor; but the analogy breaks down in that he’s basically just duped by a couple of (compared to him) amateur schemers, the magical mystery solving Stark siblings. He was brought down by Bran, the girls just played the parts they had to play. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=14)