# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/361 "2017-08-31T08:48:06Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > But **is** Zombie-Viserion a wight? He didn’t just reanimate, he was touched and raised personally by the Night’s King. Doesn’t that make him a White Walker? The Night King was made from a living man. Some of the White Walkers were made from Craster’s abandoned baby sons. At least one that we saw, with others strongly implied. Other WWs were - I’m guessing - made from captives. So it seems that if you’re living, you can be turned into a WW, if you’re dead you can only become a Wight. Viserion, therefore, is a Wight. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/362 "2017-08-31T09:17:00Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > They brought it with them to get the dragon, duh! They’ve been planning this for _millennia_. What I don’t get is how they attached the chains to the dragon, given that they can’t swim/cross water (otherwise a boat, or just swim seems necessary). ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/363 "2017-08-31T09:30:55Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Robyn hopefully will show up sometime next season? Robyn is one of the game of thrones missing, including: Wolf, Edmund (a discussion video had Edmund possibly in one of the Lannister burning wagons from the battle, since he’s not in Casterly rock or the Twins) all have not appeared in this season at all… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/364 "2017-08-31T10:04:35Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Robyn is one of the game of thrones missing, including: Wolf, Edmund (a discussion video had Edmund possibly in one of the Lannister burning wagons from the battle, since he’s not in Casterly rock or the Twins) all have not appeared in this season at all… Who is Wolf? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/365 "2017-08-31T11:09:26Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > What I don’t get is how they attached the chains to the dragon, given that they can’t swim/cross water (otherwise a boat, or just swim seems necessary). Even assuming that Jon was right that they can’t swim, I think this is as easy as wights grabbing the chain and jumping in the water, sinking, then attaching the chains to Viserion. They’re already dead, so surely drowning isn’t a concern. Maybe they can’t get back up again out of the water, unless they grab onto Viserion as he’s dragged up, but it’s not like there’s a shortage of wights around. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/366 "2017-08-31T11:12:14Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > Has it been shown that Bran can use the Heart trees to see? I can’t remember. Not that there are any in the south. There was one in Kings Landing. It is where Ser Dontos used to meet with Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/367 "2017-08-31T11:22:35Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > She tells Cat he died of a fever way back in season 1. I always thought she killed him but there is no proof of this. There’s no proof she had another kid at all. I just thought she was lying about it to Cat to show sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/368 "2017-08-31T11:33:10Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But I thought we already learned the origin of the Night King. He was formerly a member of the Night’s Watch who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker as a weapon in a war being held against the First Men. Things which don’t exist differ from the show here. Things are getting mixed up. Night king is not a member of the watch because that was formed after the white walkers had been beaten and the wall built. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/369 "2017-08-31T11:52:41Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Who is Wolf? Doh! Yeah, Ghost… ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/370 "2017-08-31T11:55:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Question: Did Robert Baratheon know at any point that the supposed kidnap/rape story was a lie? Robert was the reason why the kidnap/rape story was kept a lie. To protect Jon Snow from killing off: 1. Last targs and threat to him being king. 2. His beloved’s “bastard” son. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/371 "2017-08-31T11:59:02Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > The Night King was made from a living man. > > Some of the White Walkers were made from Craster’s abandoned baby sons. At least one that we saw, with others strongly implied. > > Other WWs were - I’m guessing - made from captives. > > So it seems that if you’re living, you can be turned into a WW, if you’re dead you can only become a Wight. > > Viserion, therefore, is a Wight. I thought the sign of a White Walker was the glowing eyes. Do the wight’s have these? In which case the Dragon is a White Walker. Which means he wasn’t dead. Or something. Or just another plothole to add to the pile. It’s as if they sacked the one who was supposed to point these out… Don’t they normally employ people to do that? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/372 "2017-08-31T12:57:59Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > There’s no proof she had another kid at all. I just thought she was lying about it to Cat to show sympathy. No. She mentions [the same child later to Robert](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpBBueLih_k). At about 5:20. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/373 "2017-08-31T13:35:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Question: Did Robert Baratheon know at any point that the supposed kidnap/rape story was a lie? > > In S1 he stands at her statute and admits he doesn’t even remember what she looked like anymore, but that could simply be the passage of time, not an admission that theirs was not true love. Robert didn’t know that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar willingly, but more importantly, he didn’t care. She was property that Robert was promised by her previous owner Rickard Stark, and Rhaegar took her from him. Whether she was raped or ran off because she loved Rhaegar didn’t matter to Robert, and didn’t matter to anyone else in their patriarchal society either. The question of Lyanna’s motivations never came up because no one cared about the answer. (Except for Ned, I guess. And now Bran, Sam, and probably, soon, Jon.) ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/374 "2017-08-31T14:21:58Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > I thought the sign of a White Walker was the glowing eyes. Do the wights have these? > > In which case the Dragon is a White Walker. Which means he wasn’t dead. Or something. > > Or just another plothole to add to the pile. It’s as if they sacked the one who was supposed to point these out… Don’t they normally employ people to do that? Yes, Wights also have glowing blue eyes. No, not a plot hole. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/375 "2017-08-31T14:22:07Z")
Considering that everyone talked about the situation in terms of it being against her will, rape, etc, I think the idea that it was only about property is flawed. **AK84** , huh. Continuity error? Showrunners throw that story in the first season without realizing it screws up the prophecy they introduce in season 4(? 5?) ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/376 "2017-08-31T14:29:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Robert didn’t know that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar willingly, but more importantly, he didn’t care. She was property that Robert was promised by her previous owner Rickard Stark, and Rhaegar took her from him. Whether she was raped or ran off because she loved Rhaegar didn’t matter to Robert, and didn’t matter to anyone else in their patriarchal society either. The question of Lyanna’s motivations never came up because no one cared about the answer. (Except for Ned, I guess. And now Bran, Sam, and probably, soon, Jon.) Society comments aside, I really do believe Robert actually loved her, and didn’t just see her as property. Just based on how he talked about her: > [@](#): > > ROBERT: Did you have to bury her in a place like this? She should be on a hill somewhere with the sun and the clouds above her. > [@](#): > > Robert Baratheon: Oh, it’s unspeakable to you? What her father did to your family… That was unspeakable. What Rhaegar Targaryen did to your sister… the woman I loved. I’ll kill every Targaryen I get my hands on. > [@](#): > > Robert Baratheon: Ah, so here we sit, seventeen years later, holding it all together. Don’t you get tired? > Cersei Baratheon: Every day. > Robert Baratheon: How long can hate hold a thing together? > Cersei Baratheon: Well, seventeen years is quite a long time. > Robert Baratheon: Yes, it is. > Cersei Baratheon: Yes, it tis. What was she like? > Robert Baratheon: You’ve never asked about her, not once. Why not? > Cersei Baratheon: At first, just saying her name, even in private felt like I was breathing life back into her. I thought if I didn’t talk about her, she’d just fade away for you. When I realized that wasn’t going to happen, I refused to ask out of spite. I didn’t want to give you the satisfaction of thinking I cared enough to ask. And eventually it became clear that my spite didn’t mean anything to you, as far as I could tell, you actually enjoyed it. > Robert Baratheon: So why now? > Cersei Baratheon: What harm could Lyanna Stark’s ghost do to either of us that we haven’t done to each other a hundred times over? > Robert Baratheon: You want to know the horrible truth? I can’t even remember what she looked like. I only know she was the one thing I ever wanted… Someone took her away from me, and Seven Kingdoms couldn’t fill the hole she left behind. > Cersei Baratheon: I felt something for you once, you know? > Robert Baratheon: I know. > Cersei Baratheon: Even after we lost our first boy – for quite a while, actually. Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a… moment? > Robert Baratheon: No. Does that make you feel better or worse? > Cersei Baratheon: It doesn’t make me feel anything. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/377 "2017-08-31T14:32:58Z")
Here’s the actor who plays Bran on the NK=Bran theory: ['Game of Thrones' Actor on Bran Stark, Night King Theory](http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/got-star-calls-bran-night-king-theory-far-fetched-w500522) > [@AK84](#): > > Reddit says that Gendry might be [Cersei’s] eldest. Possible. She hated Robert enough to send away any of his children and loved her children enough to ensure they are cared for. Possible, but I kind of doubt it. We didn’t see her do anything to find and protect him when Joffrey did his kill-all-Robert’s-bastards thang. > [@shantih](#): > > Even assuming that Jon was right that they can’t swim, I think this is as easy as wights grabbing the chain and jumping in the water, sinking, then attaching the chains to Viserion. They’re already dead, so surely drowning isn’t a concern. Maybe they can’t get back up again out of the water, unless they grab onto Viserion as he’s dragged up, but it’s not like there’s a shortage of wights around. That makes sense. I also doubt that Jon really knows what he’s talking about - we saw wights fail to jump into the water at Hardhome and on the frozen lake, but that might just be because the NK ordered them not to. Jon, Dany & Co. could be in for a nasty surprise when the NK someday tells his undead mooks to get wet. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/378 "2017-08-31T15:08:52Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Things which don’t exist differ from the show here. Things are getting mixed up. Night king is not a member of the watch because that was formed after the white walkers had been beaten and the wall built. The Night King and the Night’s King are quite often lumped together, but they reside exclusively within different media. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > **AK84** , huh. Continuity error? Showrunners throw that story in the first season without realizing it screws up the prophecy they introduce in season 4(? 5?) Possibly. And it might also be a hint for the audience to not put too much stock into prophecies; there’s still a chance that they are similar to ours: guesses of the prophet, motivations for the addressee - and isn’t this state of affairs a more satisfying precondition for watching a tale about people? It’s far more interesting if Cersei is the architect of a self-fulfilling prophecy and not the victim of an inescapable fate. Though plenty of people prefer the narrative tradition of the Iliad to the Odyssey. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/379 "2017-08-31T15:18:37Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > The Night King and the Night’s King are quite often lumped together, but they reside exclusively within different media. I think it’s safe to say that we’re only referring to the one who appeared on the TV series. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/380 "2017-08-31T15:35:50Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > The Night King and the Night’s King are quite often lumped together, but they reside exclusively within different media. So the Night’s King is the leader of the White Walkers – does that make Uncle Benjen the [Night Ranger?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCGP1MuI-Hs) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=20)