# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/381 "2017-08-31T15:42:24Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > So the Night’s King is the leader of the White Walkers – does that make Uncle Benjen the [Night Ranger?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCGP1MuI-Hs) Well, he can’t be the **Night Rider** because he gave his horse to Jon. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/382 "2017-08-31T15:55:42Z")
If Robb gets resurrected as a Wight, does that make him **Bobby Night**? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/383 "2017-08-31T16:23:32Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Society comments aside, I really do believe Robert actually loved her, and didn’t just see her as property. Just based on how he talked about her: Well, he loved the _idea_ of her. A spunky, good looking highborn gal from the exotic and rural North, who would bring him closer to his best bud, Ned and unite two of the biggest Houses in Westeros. And he must have seen her in person a few times, since he mentioned (not) remembering her face. But he didn’t know her. There’s no real Westerosi courtship, it’s not like they were dating for a while and Robert proposed. He probably only knew her through stories Ned would tell about their childhood. Rickard Stark and Steffon Baratheon made a deal without discussing it with their children beforehand, and Robert said “Right on!”, and Lyanna said “You expect me to marry _that_ drunken whoremonger?” Remember, Lyanna is like Arya, stubborn, disobedient, obsessed with traditionally male pursuits like fighting, and hates the idea of being some Lord’s Lady, shut in a castle making babies and embroidering clothes for the rest of her life. Teenage Robert probably thought that Lyanna’s personality was sexy as hell at the time, but he would most likely have gotten sick of her behavior real quick, being the conservative patriarch that he was. The fact that she was taken from him made her “the one that got away” and increased his obsession with her over the years. Otherwise he’d probably get sick of her shit and end up in a loveless, spite filled marriage just like he did with Cersei. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/384 "2017-08-31T16:29:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Well, he loved the _idea_ of her. A spunky, good looking highborn gal from the exotic and rural North, who would bring him closer to his best bud, Ned and unite two of the biggest Houses in Westeros. And he must have seen her in person a few times, since he mentioned (not) remembering her face. > > But he didn’t know her. There’s no real Westerosi courtship, it’s not like they were dating for a while and Robert proposed. He probably only knew her through stories Ned would tell about their childhood. Rickard Stark and Steffon Baratheon made a deal without discussing it with their children beforehand, and Robert said “Right on!”, and Lyanna said “You expect me to marry _that_ drunken whoremonger?” > > Remember, Lyanna is like Arya, stubborn, disobedient, obsessed with traditionally male pursuits like fighting, and hates the idea of being some Lord’s Lady, shut in a castle making babies and embroidering clothes for the rest of her life. Teenage Robert probably thought that Lyanna’s personality was sexy as hell at the time, but he would most likely have gotten sick of her behavior real quick, being the conservative patriarch that he was. > > The fact that she was taken from him made her “the one that got away” and increased his obsession with her over the years. Otherwise he’d probably get sick of her shit and end up in a loveless, spite filled marriage just like he did with Cersei. Totally agreed that they would have been a horrible match. That’s a heck of a lot different than only being mad because some guy stole your property. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/385 "2017-08-31T16:34:53Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > What I don’t get is how they attached the chains to the dragon, given that they can’t swim/cross water (otherwise a boat, or just swim seems necessary). Why would swimming be necessary? They can just sink down to the bottom of the lake and attach them. It’s not like they care about being able to get them back out of the lake afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/386 "2017-08-31T16:44:44Z")
The Night King can zombify bears – I’m sure he could then zombify seals or sharks or octopi or whatever other aquatic creatures he’d need to wrap chains around a dead dragon. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/387 "2017-08-31T17:30:07Z")
Yeah remember the bear wight had blue eyes. I wonder what it was doing wandering around on its own though. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/388 "2017-08-31T17:35:26Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Even assuming that Jon was right that they can’t swim, I think this is as easy as wights grabbing the chain and jumping in the water, sinking, then attaching the chains to Viserion. They’re already dead, so surely drowning isn’t a concern. Maybe they can’t get back up again out of the water, unless they grab onto Viserion as he’s dragged up, but it’s not like there’s a shortage of wights around. The wights that attacked Bran’s party as they approached the cave of the Three-eyed Raven had been frozen in ice, so at one point had been under water. Being under water itself shouldn’t affect them. Although they may not be able to swim, they should be able to walk along the bottom. > [@G0sp3l](#): > > Has it been shown that Bran can use the Heart trees to see? I can’t remember. Not that there are any in the south. > [@Smid](#): > > There was one in Kings Landing. It is where Ser Dontos used to meet with Sansa. It’s unclear whether Bran needs to be in the general vicinity of a Heart Tree to greensee. However, he was able to see Jon’s birth at the Tower of Joy in Dorne, where there certainly wasn’t a Heart Tree. > [@Smid](#): > > Robyn is one of the game of thrones missing, including: Wolf, Edmund (a discussion video had Edmund possibly in one of the Lannister burning wagons from the battle, since he’s not in Casterly rock or the Twins) all have not appeared in this season at all… You mean Edmure. Considering the number of more important story lines they have to tie up in the last six episodes, we may not see non-essential characters like Robyn or Edmure again. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/389 "2017-08-31T17:42:39Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Remember, Lyanna is like Arya, stubborn, disobedient, obsessed with traditionally male pursuits like fighting, and hates the idea of being some Lord’s Lady, shut in a castle making babies and embroidering clothes for the rest of her life. Teenage Robert probably thought that Lyanna’s personality was sexy as hell at the time, but he would most likely have gotten sick of her behavior real quick, being the conservative patriarch that he was. Obviously there’s a good chance you’re right… that said, the Robby B we saw back in season 1 was someone who had been ground down by a loveless marriage for two decades. It’s certainly possible that in a counterfactual where a spunky Lyanna not only marries him but truly loves him, he turns out to be a very very different person. (Particularly if he’s lucky enough NOT to be king, obviously a role he was entirely unsuited for.) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/390 "2017-08-31T17:55:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The Night King can zombify bears – I’m sure he could then zombify seals or sharks or octopi or whatever other aquatic creatures he’d need to wrap chains around a dead dragon. Octopuses are clearly in the domain of the Lovecraftian Drowned God. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/391 "2017-08-31T19:07:21Z")
Why do the wights have to hitch a ride out on the dragon? If I were a wight, I think I’d rather just climb the chain I just brought down. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/392 "2017-08-31T20:59:16Z")
More importantly, why is everyone so concerned with how they would save themselves afterwards? They are entirely expendable. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/393 "2017-08-31T22:17:01Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > More importantly, why is everyone so concerned with how they would save themselves afterwards? They are entirely expendable. Because once Jon and Dany win the war, they will use their awesome magic to _bring all the wights back to life_. Then it will be happy fun time with kittens and giants and wildling grandmas and Mance and Shireen holding hands and playing chess but all the pieces are thrones. And if they’re all at the bottom of a lake, then they can’t participate in happy fun time. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/394 "2017-08-31T22:25:12Z")
I never really put together how Ned showed up not only with a ‘bastard baby’, but also Lyannas body…and yet people still just took him at face value. “That’s YOURS?? Welp ok.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/395 "2017-08-31T22:34:26Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I never really put together how Ned showed up not only with a ‘bastard baby’, but also Lyannas body…and yet people still just took him at face value. “That’s YOURS?? Welp ok.” I think there are several reasons why people might tend to believe this. First, that it’s not at all uncommon for lords to father bastard children. For the people who are close to Ned, like Robert, they might latch on to it as a welcome sign that Ned—who otherwise acts so high-and-mighty—really does have weaknesses like everyone else. And we really don’t have a very good sense of timing of all this. If several more years went by before Ned returned to Winterfell, then Jon wouldn’t have appeared as a newborn right after Lyanna’s death. We aren’t told exactly how Ned played the whole thing, but the fact is that Westeros is an information-poor society. It’s a lot easier to take on false identities and cook up stories that are hard to question. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/396 "2017-08-31T22:35:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think there are several reasons why people might tend to believe this. First, that it’s not at all uncommon for lords to father bastard children. For the people who are close to Ned, like Robert, they might latch on to it as a welcome sign that Ned—who otherwise acts so high-and-mighty—really does have weaknesses like everyone else. > > And we really don’t have a very good sense of timing of all this. If several more years went by before Ned returned to Winterfell, then Jon wouldn’t have appeared as a newborn right after Lyanna’s death. > > We aren’t told exactly how Ned played the whole thing, but the fact is that Westeros is an information-poor society. It’s a lot easier to take on false identities and cook up stories that are hard to question. Ned was gone from Winterfell for a year. Robert’s Rebellion took a year in total. The TV series condensed this down though. Jon in the TV series was born shortly after (days? a few weeks) the Battle of the Trident, where Rhaegar fell in battle. But Ned could’ve lied about how long Lyanna had been dead for. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/397 "2017-08-31T22:42:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And we really don’t have a very good sense of timing of all this. If several more years went by before Ned returned to Winterfell, then Jon wouldn’t have appeared as a newborn right after Lyanna’s death. Given that Robb and Jon were roughly the same age Ned’s return to Winterfell couldn’t have been very long after Jon’s birth. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/398 "2017-08-31T22:50:50Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Given that Robb and Jon were roughly the same age Ned’s return to Winterfell couldn’t have been very long after Jon’s birth. I’m pretty sure Robb was conceived before Ned left to fight in the rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/399 "2017-09-01T03:19:01Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Obviously there’s a good chance you’re right… that said, the Robby B we saw back in season 1 was someone who had been ground down by a loveless marriage for two decades. It’s certainly possible that in a counterfactual where a spunky Lyanna not only marries him but truly loves him, he turns out to be a very very different person. (Particularly if he’s lucky enough NOT to be king, obviously a role he was entirely unsuited for.) And so we enter the realm of GOT alt-hist… ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/400 "2017-09-01T07:51:51Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Well, he can’t be the **Night Rider** because he gave his horse to Jon. The horse also doesn’t have a big button which he presses to nitro over a ramp and solve all the episode’s problems, so he can’t be the Night Rider. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=21)