# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/61 "2017-08-28T05:44:57Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > I can’t equate Cersei’s intelligence and equilibrium with Tywin’s. She’s an unhinged pregnant crazy murderess and he could calmly negotiate the Red Wedding with Roose Bolton. We’ve seen her satiate her desire for vengeance already this season with the sand snake and her mother. I don’t see that bloodthirsty bitch staying her hand when she has the chance. I don’t know, I think the two scenes where she should have ordered the death of her brothers but didn’t deepens the character. She’s as cold blooded as they come, but she cannot directly kill family. Good to see Jamie finally grow a pair. So is all of Cersei’s subterfuge overruled and the Lannister armies march north, or is Jamie on his own? That will be awkward. “I pledged to ride north. Didn’t say I was bringing an army with me.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/62 "2017-08-28T05:48:51Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > I can’t equate Cersei’s intelligence and equilibrium with Tywin’s. She’s an unhinged pregnant crazy murderess and he could calmly negotiate the Red Wedding with Roose Bolton. We’ve seen her satiate her desire for vengeance already this season with the sand snake and her mother. I don’t see that bloodthirsty bitch staying her hand when she has the chance. If it were anyone else I would agree with you. I reiterate though that “family is all” is at the Lannister core. Tywin knew the game of thrones required murder and otherwise dicking people over left and right so he hammered home that family was everything. He walked-the-walk too when it came to Tyrion. I thinik Cersei can have Tyrion killed at some remove from her but she cannot quite do it herself. Not to family. Anyone else sure…no problem. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/63 "2017-08-28T05:54:56Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Rhaegar already had a son with Elia named Aegon for one. His daughter Rhaella could introduce them: " Hi, my name’s Rhaella and this is my brother Aegon, and my other (half) brother Aegon." Have the names of Elia Martell’s children actually been mentioned on the show? I honestly don’t remember. I remember a lot of “you killed her children!!!” but not “you killed little Aegon!” Maybe the show producers just wanted a name that would be a recognizable Targaryen first name for a show-only audience. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/64 "2017-08-28T05:56:39Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Petyr was in Kings Landing. How is an assasin gonna get his blade and travel all the way up to Winterfell before the royal train gets a third of the way to KL? In fairness, they have spent basically the whole season setting up that it’s possible to magically get from one side of Westeros to another in less than a day whenever the plot demands it.😉 ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/65 "2017-08-28T06:27:05Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > In fairness, they have spent basically the whole season setting up that it’s possible to magically get from one side of Westeros to another in less than a day whenever the plot demands it.😉 With another one at the beginning of this episode – how did the Unsullied get from Casterly Rock to Kings Landing? As for Cersei not killing Tyrion, I thought it was part of her planned deception to convince Daenreys and company that she was going to support the fight. I did expect Jaime to die in that scene, though. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/66 "2017-08-28T06:53:26Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Maybe the show producers just wanted a name that would be a recognizable Targaryen first name for a show-only audience. If only there was some other male Targaryen character on the show whose name we knew. Even better would be if it was one who knew Jon, and thus would make the name more meaningful… ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/67 "2017-08-28T06:58:03Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Really really thought Jaime was going to die and it would have been brutal. I like Jaime so I’m glad he’s alive, but man would that have been an intense moment. “I don’t need you, I have a child” as Gregor stabs him in the back. Stabbed in the back? You _ **really** _ don’t know Ser Gregor if you think that’s his style. More likely would have drawn his huge-ass sword and simply cleaved him in twain. For a second I _almost_ thought it was gonna happen, but it would have been wrong. Because… > [@treis](#): > > He should have either killed Cersei or been killed in that scene. IMHO, his character has run its course. He’s going to be nothing more than a hanger on for Season 8. Negative. Jaime is destined to be the one who kills Cersei, thus adding “Queenslayer” to his list of titles before the end. Been positing that for years, but at this point I am sure that it’s 100% likely. > [@Biggirl](#): > > Besides Littlefinger, Tormund bought it too, I think. Nah, we would have seen it if he died. He’s definitely alive. > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I expected to see Tormund surfing a block of ice down the collapsing wall. I guess I’ll be waiting nearly a year to learn his fate. Possibly 2 years. ☹ [They’ve said](https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/2/15731682/hbo-game-of-thrones-season-8-2019-speculation) the last 6 episodes may not air until 2019. > [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > There is no evidence to support this. Re: Baelish being behind Bran’s assassination attempt: it was confirmed in this episode. We can finally lay that to rest - not sure how you could think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/68 "2017-08-28T07:00:19Z")
Also, [this is why I’m on team Night King](https://i.redd.it/c32v5eboreiz.jpg). ������ ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/69 "2017-08-28T07:00:47Z")
Alright, so, did Cersei actually genuinely plan to go help up north the first time she offered it? Before the king in the north Starked it? That felt like false drama. Cersei wasn’t demanding he bend the knee to her, just that he take no part in the conflict after that (much like his Night’s Watch vows). He could’ve asked Dany if that was an acceptable term for the truce. Instead he was like “nah son I can’t bend the knee to you even though you didn’t ask because I already bent the knee” which just fucked things up for no reason and everyone hated him for it, including Dany. So was Cersei legitimately offering her help before then, but then only falsely offering it later? If not, if it was a ruse all along, then there was no reason for her to walk out when Jon refused the offer - she would still agree to help and send them on their way, still planning to betray them. If she did, then Jon Starked that shit all to hell by trying to wedge some sort of honorable defiance in a situation where it didn’t even call for it. > [@DrCube](#): > > The least believable part was when Cersei was alone in a room with Tyrion and didn’t even try to kill him. I’ll believe ice dragon zombies bringing down an 8000 year old magic ice wall, but not that. “No, Jon Snow, you can’t go see her. She just tried to make a non-aggression pact with you that guaranteed to respect your kingdom. Surely she’ll have you killed. I, the person she has dreamed of killing all her life, will instead go. Only me.” > [@tim314](#): > > In fairness, they have spent basically the whole season setting up that it’s possible to magically get from one side of Westeros to another in less than a day whenever the plot demands it.😉 Right, but that was back when the show actually took care to make sure things made sense, so that would be retroactively screwing the writing which probably had a better plan at that stage. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/70 "2017-08-28T07:35:28Z")
I love how Cersei blames Tyrion for destroying her family. She is the reason Tommen is dead, she’s indirectly responsible for Myrcella’s death, and she was almost certainly the greatest contributing factor to Joffrey’s. Her father, that’s on Tywin. He tried to have his son killed, he lost. What I still don’t understand is why. Was he telling Tyrion the truth that he would never actually have him executed? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/71 "2017-08-28T07:40:19Z")
The original plan was certainly to send Tyrion to the wall, but once Tyrion demanded a trial by combat it may have been more or less out of his hands. Which would make what he told him on Ye Olde Shitter a lie. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/72 "2017-08-28T08:05:46Z")
The ending was visually arresting though I hope their plan wasn’t: 1. Wait for dragons to be un-extinct, wait millenia for one to come north. 2. ??? 3. Profit! Because they obviously weren’t waiting since S1E1 but ramping up activity. I guess if they didn’t have a dragon, they’d cross the wall with a human wave type attack. I was surprised they did Eastwatch and no Castle Black. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Re: Theon. I liked that he grew a pair after What’s-His-Name kneed him in his non-existent family jewels. > > Arya killed Littlefinger with his own knife, right? I’d imagine groin shots don’t feel good regardless. Was that guy supposed to be unaware of the castration? One shot to the jewels is habit, but I’m surprised he tried again and again. Yes. And then put it back in the sheath without wiping it. Bothered the neck out of me. > [@Rigamarole](#): > > Also, [this is why I’m on team Night King](https://i.redd.it/c32v5eboreiz.jpg). ������ Less that 200 years? What are they basing that number on? Aegon was about 300. The last time the WWs came was several thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/73 "2017-08-28T08:29:50Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Petyr was in Kings Landing. How is an assasin gonna get his blade and travel all the way up to Winterfell before the royal train gets a third of the way to KL? Maybe it was sent to him by raven. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/74 "2017-08-28T08:31:37Z")
Sure, if they can fly 200 mph, why not carry three times their body weight too? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/75 "2017-08-28T09:19:24Z")
The guy Theon beat gassed quicker than Conor McGregor did on Saturday night. I still have major problems with series seven but the final episode was pretty solid. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/76 "2017-08-28T09:25:49Z")
Notice how The Mountain didn’t put himself between Cersei and the wight? Significant, or just the show being dramatic? He wasted no time intercepting his brother. If it is significant, I wonder if the Mountain identifies more with the dead than the living at this point? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/77 "2017-08-28T10:17:47Z")
R.I.P. Petyr. Gonna miss him. Still, it was fitting for him to go out the way he did. Even begging on his knees, you could tell he was still scheming to the bitter end. On the other hand, it would’ve been even more fitting for Theon to die as well, beaten to a bloody pulp on a beach thousands of miles from home, while muttering _“Reek…Reek…Reek…”_ He’s one of the few irredeemable characters on the show, and not just for the things he’s done. That said, at least the question of whether his balls were taken along with his penis has finally, at long last, been answered. > [@Biggirl](#): > > Do you think Ser Friendzone was in the cabin next to Dany’s and heard ‘thud thud thud’ all night long? LOL!!! Poor, poor Jorah… is there anyone he can hook up with as a consolation prize? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/78 "2017-08-28T10:21:29Z")
Loved Sam’s interaction with Bran; Sam’s pleasant cheerfulness was a delightful contrast to Bran’s flat affect and mystical solemnity. Bran: I’m the three-eyed raven now. Sam: Oh! (beat) I don’t know what that means. Littlefinger’s death scene was just great. The three Stark siblings coming together, each showcasing their particular skills, was highly satisfying. Peter Dinklage and Lena Headey brought it hard in their scene together. They’re both such extraordinary actors and can express so much nuanced and conflicting emotion with such subtlety. It depends on what happens in season 8, of course, but I’ll lay a bet that that was their last scene together. So, Jon forgives Theon for whatever he’s able to – oh yeah, Theon’s a goner. I hope he’s able to save Yara first. That glimmer in his eyes when the man fighting him kept kneeing him without bringing him down was golden. The last scene, with the dead pouring through the gap in the wall, was epic. Was the music over the shot the same as what played as Dany was riding away with her new Unsullied army at the end of season 3 or was it just similar? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/79 "2017-08-28T10:27:39Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The original plan was certainly to send Tyrion to the wall, but once Tyrion demanded a trial by combat it may have been more or less out of his hands. Which would make what he told him on Ye Olde Shitter a lie. Tywin could have changed it if he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/80 "2017-08-28T10:53:00Z")
I’m suspicious that Cersei actually did get her vengeance on Tyrion. The camera lingered a bit on the pitcher of wine he poured himself a glass from. Then he pours her a glass as well, but she never drinks from it. Sure this could be part of Tyrion figuring out she’s pregnant, but I doubt knowledge of fetal alcohol syndrome is a thing in Westeros. Did she give him a slow acting poison, knowing that killing him immediately would give away her plans to betray the truce? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=5)