# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/101 "2017-08-28T14:18:19Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > I hope he’s able to save Yara first. I know that’s how it’s spelled, but when I hear her name it shows up as ‘Llara’ in my head. ---
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/102 "2017-08-28T14:18:56Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > The Night King: > > It’s almost too late to address the motives and desires of the White Walkers, but not quite. I hope the show sees more in them than a force of nature or Childrenstein’s monster on the loose. > > Their motivation should be more complex than the average comic book supervillain, and there are hints enough to give them depth. I am hoping that about 1/3 of next season is devoted to explaining the Night King’s origin and motivation. Maybe the NK has no interest in killing people–maybe he just wants to break his curse and die–maybe, like Dany, _HE_ wants to break the wheel. I am also hoping **Monsieur le bœuf** starts a thread about Thursday or Friday asking us all what we want to see happen in season 8. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/103 "2017-08-28T14:31:29Z")
But I thought we already learned the origin of the Night King. He was formerly a member of the Night’s Watch who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker as a weapon in a war being held against the First Men. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/104 "2017-08-28T14:34:02Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Anyone think there will be a Tyrion duplicity revealed later–they wrote themselves into a corner with the Tyrion/Cersie scene and had to just end it without real resolution. Maybe he promised to protect the child no matter what if she agreed to help in the fight. It will come to head later when Dany and Jon want to have her executed before giving birth. Any plan like that would require Cersei to consider the possibility that she does not end up victorious, and I doubt she is willing to do so. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/105 "2017-08-28T14:35:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But I thought we already learned the origin of the Night King. He was formerly a member of the Night’s Watch who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker as a weapon in a war being held against the First Men. I thought the Wall was built AFTER there was a Night King and hordes of Wights, since why else would they go to the trouble of building an 800 foot ice wall? And without a Wall, no Night’s Watch. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/106 "2017-08-28T14:36:53Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But I thought we already learned the origin of the Night King. He was formerly a member of the Night’s Watch who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker as a weapon in a war being held against the First Men. This is right except for that he was a member of the NW – that organization was formed in response to the White Walker threat, and didn’t exist before, in my understanding of show universe history. As far as we know, he was just a random dude captured by the Children. EDIT: ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/107 "2017-08-28T14:38:05Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > But I thought we already learned the origin of the Night King. He was formerly a member of the Night’s Watch who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker as a weapon in a war being held against the First Men. Yes, but we still don’t have a clue as to motivation. Is he just a Berserker in the Saberhagan mold or does he have an end-game of his own? ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/108 "2017-08-28T14:38:11Z")
A really minor point, but I don’t believe Cersei would have ever entered the Dragon Pit BEFORE Dany was there. She’s the monarch, on her own ground. If anyone gets the grand entrance/no waiting around like a flunky, it’s her. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/109 "2017-08-28T14:38:18Z")
> [@jkirkman](#): > > A “Newhart” reference! > > Not sure about the tv show timeline (what _else_ is new?), but The Mountain might have already killed the other Aegon by the time Jon was born. Was Rhaegar already dead by the time Jon was born? He certainly wasn’t there. I think Jon’s birth happened during the climactic battle of Rhaegar’s army vs Robert’s. Ned Stark wasn’t at that battle. And he was late arriving to the sacking of King’s Landing, after the Lannisters had overthrown Aerys. He found Jaime sitting on the iron throne, as a lark. I think the Sansa-Arya conflict throughout the season was legitimate, but there was a scene we didn’t see where Bran talked to both of them and cleared things up. Another possibility… Arya was in on it the whole time, and setting up LF for the fall. Sansa definitely didn’t know until near the end though. Possibly when LF tried to use “Arya becomes lady of Winterfell” as motivation for Arya – Sansa would know that was BS, Arya doesn’t want to be a lady. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/110 "2017-08-28T14:39:46Z")
OK, reading the GOT wiki, apparently the Night King was one of the First Men, who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/111 "2017-08-28T14:39:49Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Anyone think there will be a Tyrion duplicity revealed later–they wrote themselves into a corner with the Tyrion/Cersie scene and had to just end it without real resolution. Maybe he promised to protect the child no matter what if she agreed to help in the fight. It will come to head later when Dany and Jon want to have her executed before giving birth. If I were the writers, I’d have her baby turn out to be a dwarf. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/112 "2017-08-28T14:48:45Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > The trial/execution scene lost some drama when you saw Bran was there. No way would it be Arya with him there being able to fact check everything. I expected more Little Finger secrets to be revealed in front of everyone by him. Also…why are the Vale Knights still there? Robyn hopefully will show up sometime next season? This scene was one of my two biggest gripes of the episode. Other the unnecessary and unrealistic "It’s gonna be Arya…psych!!! (which, I understand, is a TV thing), I don’t see why Littlefinger didn’t go “Prove it” for all his charges. LF: “Prove it” Sansa: “Bran says so because he’s creepy and magically knows the past” LF: “Prove it” Bran: \*some accurate quote from the past that only he and LF know" LF: “That’s a pretty cool quote you just made up. Again, prove it.” That kind of conversation could have gone on literally forever. I can see how Sansa could trust her family over a schemer (even if he was on her side) but nothing in that whole ordeal seemed anything more to me than a giant he-said-she-said. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I’d imagine groin shots don’t feel good regardless. Was that guy supposed to be unaware of the castration? One shot to the jewels is habit, but I’m surprised he tried again and again. > > Yes. And then put it back in the sheath without wiping it. Bothered the neck out of me. I even said aloud “I get what they’re doing, but that would still hurt ya know”. I also don’t see how beating up one random dude can magically make the rest of the crew be like “Yeah! We’ll follow you now! You beat up one guy!” > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Sure, if they can fly 200 mph, why not carry three times their body weight too? Well if an unladen swallow has a coconut… > [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > I’m suspicious that Cersei actually did get her vengeance on Tyrion. The camera lingered a bit on the pitcher of wine he poured himself a glass from. Then he pours her a glass as well, but she never drinks from it. Sure this could be part of Tyrion figuring out she’s pregnant, but I doubt knowledge of fetal alcohol syndrome is a thing in Westeros. Did she give him a slow acting poison, knowing that killing him immediately would give away her plans to betray the truce? I thought that too! But I think the wine was further evidence to her being pregnant, besides, it’s not like she’d know Tyrion was coming that day… But Cersei and her military plan is my biggest gripe about this episode. Her strategy is all kinds of stupid and makes zero sense. Your plan is to betray the people you said you wouldn’t, people who already hate you, and sit back for…reasons? To save your family? If family is all you care about, then the smarter play is to throw nameless soldiers to their deaths in an effort to play nice, THEN stab everyone in the back. It’s easier to stab your enemy in the back when you’re in the same room with them as opposed to a continent away. Someone has apparently never heard the phrase “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”. Here’s the smart play: Agree to play nice with everyone and consider it a massive scouting project. Find the weaknesses in your enemies by insisting you place your general in their ranks. There is your trusted spy on the inside. Quietly gather your massive mercenary army while sacrificing the redshirt army you currently have. Then, once the zombie army is dead (who you already recognize is a threat), you pull a red wedding on the celebration party and straight up murder everyone. If some of them happen to get away, who cares? You have a massive mercenary army at your beck and call. All her current strategy does is anger the people already angry with you, guarantee an all out war in the future and put you MORE at risk. So so so stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/113 "2017-08-28T14:48:46Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > But I thought we already learned the origin of the Night King. He was formerly a member of the Night’s Watch who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker as a weapon in a war being held against the First Men. > > Yes, but we still don’t have a clue as to motivation. Is he just a Berserker in the Saberhagan mold or does he have an end-game of his own? I have _no_ idea what “a Berserker in the Saberhagan mold” is but the Night King was created from one of the First Men as a weapon against the First Men by the Children of the Forest (although he ended up killing all or most of the Children of the Forest). So my guess is that his motivation is, simply, to kill all the humans. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/114 "2017-08-28T14:57:02Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > But Cersei and her military plan is my biggest gripe about this episode. Her strategy is all kinds of stupid and makes zero sense. Your plan is to betray the people you said you wouldn’t, people who already hate you, and sit back for…reasons? To save your family? If family is all you care about, then the smarter play is to throw nameless soldiers to their deaths in an effort to play nice, THEN stab everyone in the back. It’s easier to stab your enemy in the back when you’re in the same room with them as opposed to a continent away. Someone has apparently never heard the phrase “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”. She wants the army of the dead and Dany/Jon’s side to fight each other so she can go in and mop up the loser. In the meantime, she is going to reassert her control over the south. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/115 "2017-08-28T15:04:04Z")
I was really underwhelmed at the Jon Snow reveal at the end. This was THE big reveal they’d been setting up from the literally the show’s beginning. And how did it come about? Exposition fairy. Samwell Tarly happened to show up at Winterfell and the first thing he does is goes to see Bran. Bran then immediately launches into his story about Jon. Why? Why would Bran tell this to Sam and not either of his sisters first? Realize that Bran didn’t know Sam knew anything when he first started talking. He even said as much up front. He just randomly starts talking to Sam, one of two people in the entire universe who could add on to Bran’s story. Which of course Sam does because of course he remembers a throwaway line from Gilly from weeks ago when Sam was frustrated and distracted with other matters. Besides, if Bran really thought Jon Snow was Jon Sand…what difference would that even make? Still a bastard. Still not heir to anything. Why would Bran even care? Why would that be important to someone who’s pretty much removed from concern about the day to day lives of humans? How much better would the scene have been if Bran knows everything? If he specifically called for Sam to come to him before anyone even knew Sam was coming to Winterfell. If Sam is in disbelief and Bran had to say that he’s telling this to Sam because Sam knows it to be true and reminds Sam about his private conversation with Gilly. That’s the power of the 3 eyed raven. Also, if you’re a hardcore fan, you’d been theorizing it for years and had already guessed at the information presented. So none of this took you by surprise. If you’re a casual fan, I don’t think it was really explained well at all and I believe it would have gone over many people’s heads. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/116 "2017-08-28T15:21:18Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > I think Jon’s birth happened during the climactic battle of Rhaegar’s army vs Robert’s. Ned Stark wasn’t at that battle. And he was late arriving to the sacking of King’s Landing, after the Lannisters had overthrown Aerys. He found Jaime sitting on the iron throne, as a lark. **Chronology** 1. Battle at the Trident where Robert killed Rhaegar, which Ned mentions to Ser Arthur Dayne. 2. Sack of King’s Landing, the rape of the first Mrs Rhaegar and the murder of her children by the Mountian 3. Eddard Stark leads his Army into Dorne to mop up any remaining resistance (the Dornish Army had supported the Crown), which is where he finds Lyanna, who has given birth recently and who croaks not long after. This is where we meet Aegon/Jon. So probably by the time the littlest Aegon was born, the littler Aegon was already dead. [QUOTE=Dewey Finn] OK, reading the GOT wiki, apparently the Night King was one of the First Men, who was turned by the Children of the Forest into a White Walker. [/QUOTE] Thats one theory. The other is that he is the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch who took up with a female WHite Walker (a Walkeress?) and nearly destroyed the Watch, it took the Wildlings and the Starks to put him down. Jon’s wilding spear wife mentions this in…the [history and lore of Westeros on the DVD](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TQHjo3xzQ). ETA: I do hope we have more scenes in Essos before the show ends. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/117 "2017-08-28T15:23:04Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > How much better would the scene have been if Bran knows everything? If he specifically called for Sam to come to him before anyone even knew Sam was coming to Winterfell. If Sam is in disbelief and Bran had to say that he’s telling this to Sam because Sam knows it to be true and reminds Sam about his private conversation with Gilly. That’s the power of the 3 eyed raven. Even better would be Bran ending it with “And you have the book to prove it”. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/118 "2017-08-28T15:37:03Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > This scene was one of my two biggest gripes of the episode. Other the unnecessary and unrealistic "It’s gonna be Arya…psych!!! (which, I understand, is a TV thing), I don’t see why Littlefinger didn’t go “Prove it” for all his charges. > > LF: “Prove it” > Sansa: “Bran says so because he’s creepy and magically knows the past” > LF: “Prove it” > Bran: \*some accurate quote from the past that only he and LF know" > LF: “That’s a pretty cool quote you just made up. Again, prove it.” > > That kind of conversation could have gone on literally forever. I can see how Sansa could trust her family over a schemer (even if he was on her side) but nothing in that whole ordeal seemed anything more to me than a giant he-said-she-said. Everyone in that room were either Stark bannermen or Knights of the Vale. Both groups despise Littlefinger. The bannerman would be willing to take the word of the Starks over Littlefinger and the Knights were just looking for a reason to rid themselves of the guy that had wormed his way into power at the Eyrie and killed their Lady. The man who refuses him passage to the Eyrie is Yohn Royce the top bannerman for House Arryn and the current foster father of Robin Arryn. The Vale had no interest in protecting him over the nieces of the their Lady. Sansa could have accused him of killing ArchDuke Ferdinand and being the shooter on the Grassy Knoll and they would have accepted that as enough reason to kill Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/119 "2017-08-28T15:42:34Z")
> [@](#): > > even said aloud “I get what they’re doing, but that would still hurt ya know”. I also don’t see how beating up one random dude can magically make the rest of the crew be like “Yeah! We’ll follow you now! You beat up one guy!” The son of the former king beat up the guy who killed his father, so it makes sort of sense. It’s unfortunate that Theon’s plotline has become (even more) tangential to the story ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/120 "2017-08-28T15:42:36Z")
The Mountain must literally _and_ figuratively have blue balls with all the almost-ecutions he’s been doing recently. Well I guess half of his job description is just “Look really, really mean”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=7)