# Game of Thrones 7.07 "The Dragon and the Wolf" 8/27/17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885 "2017-08-27T22:59:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/141 "2017-08-28T17:12:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > How the heck did Cersei and Euron plan their little drama in which Euron freaks out at the sight of a wight and pretends to leave for the Iron Islands? I don’t know if they knew the full extent of what the meeting would be about, but it would pretty easy to say “At some point, storm off and saying you’re abandoning us.” ---
**Author:** ![jkirkman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jkirkman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkirkman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/142 "2017-08-28T17:27:17Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > One funny little bit was when Sam was talking to Brann and said to him, “Did you see that in one of your visions?” and by way of reply Brann just held up the Ravengram. Yep. When I watched it last night, I was committed to following the plot lines. When I re-watched it this morning, I was amused by all the moments and one-liners that I completely missed the first time. I know this board skews towards over-educated pedant, of which I am a card-carrying member, but I _do_ appreciate the humor embedded in the last three episodes. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/143 "2017-08-28T17:31:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > How the heck did Cersei and Euron plan their little drama in which Euron freaks out at the sight of a wight and pretends to leave for the Iron Islands? Like **enalzi** , I think the goal was set in advance: Euron was supposed to be antagonistic (which he was from the start by insulting Tyrion and Theon) and Cersei was meant to reprimand him to establish an image of rationality on her part while he played himself: the mad and riotous pirate king. He would have found a reason to storm away while making her look good in any case; the zombie was the perfect opportunity since it gave a reasonable explanation for his exit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/144 "2017-08-28T17:32:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If Dany/Jon lose, she takes her army, sails with the Iron Fleet, and conquers some place in Essos. This bothered me. It is stated in the episode that the wights can’t swim. In the previous episode, we saw some falling through the ice, and the rest stopping to they don’t fall in. Yet when Bran and the Reeds were trying to get to the cave where the Children of the Forest live, we saw wights coming out of the small lake/pond they had to cross. So obviously, being submerged in water doesn’t kill wights. I don’t think it has been established that they can’t simply _walk_ along the bottom until they surface elsewhere, like Romero’s zombies in _Land Of The Dead_. So a reasonable person might conclude that the dead will find them no matter where they go. And there’s also the possibility that Winter will be so severe (because of the White Walkers) that there might be an ice bridge between Westeros and Essos. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/145 "2017-08-28T17:57:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So a reasonable person might conclude that the dead will find them no matter where they go. And there’s also the possibility that Winter will be so severe (because of the White Walkers) that there might be an ice bridge between Westeros and Essos. The key word here is “reasonable”. Euron is anything but; and Cersei has gone beyond a point in her mind where compromises are feasible. The only way to deal with her now is with a pointy end. And I think, Jamie went away not just because he had given his word but also because of this realisation. Still, a retreat is the best option if the Stark-Targaryen alliance fails: at the very least you buy time to find a more effective way to deal with the dead, at worst you have lived longer. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/146 "2017-08-28T18:02:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > This bothered me. It is stated in the episode that the wights can’t swim. In the previous episode, we saw some falling through the ice, and the rest stopping to they don’t fall in. > > Yet when Bran and the Reeds were trying to get to the cave where the Children of the Forest live, we saw wights coming out of the small lake/pond they had to cross. I don’t think those were underwater zombies, just lying-under-snow zombies. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/147 "2017-08-28T18:03:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I love how Cersei blames Tyrion for destroying her family. She is the reason Tommen is dead, she’s indirectly responsible for Myrcella’s death, and she was almost certainly the greatest contributing factor to Joffrey’s. Her father, that’s on Tywin. He tried to have his son killed, he lost. What I still don’t understand is why. Was he telling Tyrion the truth that he would never actually have him executed? Every good villain is the hero of their own story. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/148 "2017-08-28T18:19:24Z")
Total tangent: if the zombies, er, wights, can’t swim, how’d they get those big-ass chains around their new dragon, to drag it out of the frozen lake? My guess is that “they can’t swim” was a “listen, jackass, FOCUS” answer, so … I do think the zombies can swim. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/149 "2017-08-28T18:23:59Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Like **enalzi** , I think the goal was set in advance: Euron was supposed to be antagonistic (which he was from the start by insulting Tyrion and Theon) and Cersei was meant to reprimand him to establish an image of rationality on her part while he played himself: the mad and riotous pirate king. He would have found a reason to storm away while making her look good in any case; the zombie was the perfect opportunity since it gave a reasonable explanation for his exit. For once Cersei had a plan worthy of Tywin. She would agree to the meeting, Euron would pretend to out of control. After the wight show he would pretend to storm off. She would make an offer and put a condition that Jon would probably refuse. She would leave and Tyrion would come after her. She would let him know about the pregnancy and use that as a pretext for an about face. Her enemies then march off to fight the army of the undead, leaving her all of Westeros south of the twins. by the time they realize they have been lied to, they are too far north to do anything about it. It was a great plan and she carried it off perfectly. I was totally fooled. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/150 "2017-08-28T18:26:03Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I have to admit I was confused by the opening scene. The Unsullied and Dothraki armies show up at… that was King’s Landing then? At first I thought it was Highgarden, which I admit makes no sense. And it looked like a siege/battle was about to take place, which Jaime and Bronn seemed to acknowledge. > > Then all of the sudden there is Bronn escorting their guests to the dragon pit. I felt like I had missed a couple of scenes. So were the Unsullied and Dothraki just the escorts for the royal party? That was a threat to Cersei, that says if you don’t agree to a ceasefire we are going to attack you. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/151 "2017-08-28T18:26:43Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > This bothered me. It is stated in the episode that the wights can’t swim. In the previous episode, we saw some falling through the ice, and the rest stopping to they don’t fall in. > > Yet when Bran and the Reeds were trying to get to the cave where the Children of the Forest live, we saw wights coming out of the small lake/pond they had to cross. So obviously, being submerged in water doesn’t kill wights. I don’t think it has been established that they can’t simply _walk_ along the bottom until they surface elsewhere, like Romero’s zombies in _Land Of The Dead_. So a reasonable person might conclude that the dead will find them no matter where they go. And there’s also the possibility that Winter will be so severe (because of the White Walkers) that there might be an ice bridge between Westeros and Essos. The small lake was enough to protect the gang, so it’s reasonable for them to conclude that water stops the wights. As for an ice bridge, sure that’s theoretically possible, but AFAIK it’s never happened in their recorded history. I think it would be quite the intellectual leap for them to conclude that Essos (or the Iron Isles) are in much danger. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/152 "2017-08-28T18:28:46Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I don’t know if they knew the full extent of what the meeting would be about, but it would pretty easy to say “At some point, storm off and saying you’re abandoning us.” I also was wondering why they’d do that before seeing the evidence, but upon reflection I think it works however the negotiations go. Cersei wanted to have an ace up her sleeve, no matter what, and Euron is that ace. Totally in character for her to set his dramatic exit up before seeing the wight. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/153 "2017-08-28T18:29:19Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Everyone in that room were either Stark bannermen or Knights of the Vale. Both groups despise Littlefinger. The bannerman would be willing to take the word of the Starks over Littlefinger and the Knights were just looking for a reason to rid themselves of the guy that had wormed his way into power at the Eyrie and killed their Lady. The man who refuses him passage to the Eyrie is Yohn Royce the top bannerman for House Arryn and the current foster father of Robin Arryn. The Vale had no interest in protecting him over the nieces of the their Lady. > > Sansa could have accused him of killing ArchDuke Ferdinand and being the shooter on the Grassy Knoll and they would have accepted that as enough reason to kill Littlefinger. Sansa lying was the only reason the Lords of the Vale did not kill Littlefinger for murdering Lysa. They knew that Sansa was there when Lyssa died, so they don’t just have to take Bran’s word for it, they have an eyewitness to one of his crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/154 "2017-08-28T18:30:25Z")
> [@jkirkman](#): > > Yep. When I watched it last night, I was committed to following the plot lines. > > When I re-watched it this morning, I was amused by all the moments and one-liners that I completely missed the first time. > > I know this board skews towards over-educated pedant, of which I am a card-carrying member, but I _do_ appreciate the humor embedded in the last three episodes. I loved Bronn’s theory of motivational cocks. It’s too bad Jaime didn’t bring him along to the North just for the banter. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/155 "2017-08-28T18:32:18Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > I loved Bronn’s theory of motivational cocks. It’s too bad Jaime didn’t bring him along to the North just for the banter. Since Jaime’s the only one who’s got an outstanding debt, Bronn totally would’ve gone! ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/156 "2017-08-28T18:34:11Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The least believable part was when Cersei was alone in a room with Tyrion and didn’t even try to kill him. Same here. Totally inconsistent with her character – even if she had never met him before, the chance to kill the Hand of her sworn enemy would be too good to pass up. To let him live when she has hated him with the heat of a thousand suns all her life makes no sense, and they didn’t even bother to try to explain it. It actually looked like Jaime was in more danger from her than Tyrion. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/157 "2017-08-28T18:34:16Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > The son of the former king beat up the guy who killed his father, so it makes sort of sense. > > It’s unfortunate that Theon’s plotline has become (even more) tangential to the story They were followers of Yora and Theon from when Euron first came back. What they knew of Theon was that he bugs out when the going gets tough like he did in the fight against his uncle. His continuing to fight after being beaten down early in the fight, showed that he was a changed man and gave them the confidence they needed to follow him to rescue Yara. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/158 "2017-08-28T18:38:03Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Same here. Totally inconsistent with her character – even if she had never met him before, the chance to kill the Hand of her sworn enemy would be too good to pass up. To let him live when she has hated him with the heat of a thousand suns all her life makes no sense, and they didn’t even bother to try to explain it. It actually looked like Jaime was in more danger from her than Tyrion. If she kills Tyrion then she can’t pretend to join the cause and Dany doesn’t send her whole army up North. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/159 "2017-08-28T18:38:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Where did Jaime go after he saw the snow starting? Did he go back to the dragonpit, Kings landing, or North? Did we get an answer to this question, or do we just have to wait for the final season? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885/160 "2017-08-28T18:39:10Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Sansa lying was the only reason the Lords of the Vale did not kill Littlefinger for murdering Lysa. They knew that Sansa was there when Lyssa died, so they don’t just have to take Bran’s word for it, they have an eyewitness to one of his crimes. At that point, all of Littlefinger’s power derived from his control of Robin. Recall that before the Vale rode North, Littlefinger threatened to have Yohn Royce thrown off the Eyrie. As soon as Littlefinger leaves the Eyrie, he’s surrounded by people who he has threatened and hate him. He shouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-7-07-the-dragon-and-the-wolf-8-27-17/794885.md?page=9)