# Game of Thrones 8.03 "The Long Night" 4/28/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190 "2019-04-28T20:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/221 "2019-04-29T16:40:32Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > 1. Most of the Ironborn are on the opposite side of the continent. Right. Most of the fighting men and ships went with Euron. > [@](#): > > 1. Last season completely did away with the idea that logistics or travel times matter. If the writers want to see Yara in King’s Landing she’ll be there. I’m pretty sure she has to have another confrontation with Euron. (And from what we have seen in this episode, such expectations are likely to come true.) But realistically it would take Jon/Danaeys remaining forces (what’s left of them) months to regroup and reach King’s Landing, so there are similar time travel considerations for them as Yara. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/222 "2019-04-29T16:40:48Z")
Why was Ghost running with the Dothraki and Ser Jorah? AFAIR, neither Ghost nor Jon had any close ties to them. He would have been more useful inside the walls. I imagine that the producers wanted to show him and then get rid of him. But maybe he was scouting or Bran was warged into him for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/223 "2019-04-29T16:41:10Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > The head didn’t detach, but the staff was uncoupled once into two small spears. The weapon doesn’t much resemble the drawing she gave Gendry, but I assume that was intentional. I predicted a week or so ago that Arya was going to use it to kill either the zombie dragon or Night King. Turns out I was wrong. Sorta. If she was going to kill the Night King it should have been wirth that spear. Says I! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/224 "2019-04-29T16:45:32Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And the writers could have had the battle make sense and eliminate the Army of the Dead pretty easily. The AoD just marches forward because he White King is not going to know about the Valyrian Steel and dragonglass. The Night King knows perfectly well about Valyrian steel and dragonglass. He saw Jon kill a White Walker at Hardhome, so he knows he has such a sword. He knows Meera killed a Walker with dragonglass. As has been said, the Night King’s strategy to hold the Walkers back and let the wights serve as cannon fodder made perfect sense if he know they were vulnerable. And it would have worked, too, if it hadn’t been for that pesky girl! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/225 "2019-04-29T16:48:42Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Why was Ghost running with the Dothraki and Ser Jorah? AFAIR, neither Ghost nor Jon had any close ties to them. > > He would have been more useful inside the walls. I imagine that the producers wanted to show him and then get rid of him. But maybe he was scouting or Bran was warged into him for a bit. We were only shown Bran warging into the ravens, so I think we can assume he didn’t warg into Ghost. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/226 "2019-04-29T16:54:35Z")
Meant to write earlier, I would like to’ve seen the Hound using his dragonglass axe to much better advantage, laying waste to any wights who came near. > [@steronz](#): > > …Consider this alternate episode. Winterfell is set up like we saw it, except the Dothraki are kept off to the side like an actual cavalry would be… > > I’ll stop there, but I think this is all much more satisfying than whatever they have cooked up now… > [@Gorsnak](#): > > I think there were two major problems with the episode, one of which is forgivable but the other isn’t. One, the tactics sucked but then the tactics always suck, so…whatever. But worse, the story contradicted itself. > > …My re-write, using the same basic script… Those were pretty awesome, you two! Wish they’d hired you. > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > …I was disappointed Tyrion didn’t develop any useful tricks from his fireside chat with The Guy Who Knows Literally Everything… Strongly agreed. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Cersei does not have a dragon or wights so that battle will be very different. A dragon can wipe out a lot of soldiers quickly as we already saw. Yup - and those were even Lannister troops! > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I don’t think the Iron islands sent people did they? If not they could be in the next battle. Theon had his small group of archers, from the ship he came in, guarding Bran, but otherwise not. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: we’re sure to see Yara and an Iron Islands fleet “unexpectedly” sail to the rescue sometime before the show wraps up. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/227 "2019-04-29T16:55:05Z")
> [@robby](#): > > The main difference is that it seemed evident that the the two armies were not evenly matched up in numbers at the beginning of the battle. Instead, the living were apparently outnumbered by the undead, possibly by several orders of magnitude. On that note, it seems like a better battle plan would have been to take on a defensive posture against the attacking forces behind the walls instead of taking them on head-on in the field, especially if the size of the attacking force was unknown. I don’t think Winterfell could usefully hold all the soldiers that they had assembled. It’s just not that big. They were camped in tents outside the walls. Clearly they should have reserved more people on the walls, though. The dead should have _eventually_ broken through somewhere, but there shouldn’t have been 20-foot sections of wall with like two people guarding them. > [@](#): > > On another note, how pathetic is it that two live dragons were unable to stop one undead dragon? At the climax, the one undead dragon was rampaging through the castle and about to flambe Jon with blue fire, and the other two dragons were nowhere to be seen. I think the live dragons did the right thing there and got the fuck out of dodge. Can they even kill a wight dragon? Their fire didn’t do it. They ripped a chunk of its neck out and that didn’t do it. The longer they fight the more chance that there are two dead dragons. I think the issue with viewing is less the televisions (modern televisions do have a pretty good picture), and more the compression. Video compression does not handle dark scenes well at all. Even if you adjust the contrast and brightness, the compression algorithm has already decided that one shade of dark is about as good as any, so let’s fill 3/4 of the screen with three bands of slightly different dark bluish. There were definitely moments in the episode that I liked. The dwindling fire of the Dothraki charge was great, for example. But I largely agree with the criticisms. The whole thing was way too by the numbers. Nothing interesting happened. No one did anything clever. None of the major characters felt like they were really in danger. And for all the time and money and special effects they spent on this, you couldn’t _see_ it! Did we really need 90 minutes for this? They should have had one of the named characters go down in the first ten minutes, be raised as a wight, and take down _another_ of the named characters. That would have given the whole thing some urgency. Instead it was just piles of dimly-lit redshirts and heroic death scenes. > [@Suburban Plankton](#): > > As far as the Night King getting killed so “easily”: I think that was fine. Look back to Season 1. Ned Stark was the main character, the ‘hero’…and then he was dead. Just like that, with no fanfare, no heroic end…he just got his head chopped off. But the Night King’s death wasn’t anything like Ned Stark’s death. There was so much fanfare. There was literally a slow-motion, just-in-time, climax-of-multiple-fights-in-multiple-locations action-movie death. We don’t need to have Arya kill the Night King _just_ as he is about to kill Bran and _just_ as Jon Snow is exposed to the dragon wight and _just_ as all the other named characters are on the brink of being overwhelmed (for like the eighth time). A much much better and more early-season GoT death would be that she just drops on him as he’s walking through the courtyard. Death when you least expect it. Death in GoT doesn’t have to be heroic and scenic. It’s nasty and brutal and quick. Similarly, Theon shouldn’t get to make his heroic charge all the way down a row of wights. They should just close in and overwhelm him. The reason Ned Stark’s death was surprising is that it contradicts all the normal tropes of storytelling. Like, how many times have we seen the main character rescued from what looked like a certain execution? Our lead character sure seems to be on the down and out, but don’t worry, he’s got an ace up his sleeve. Maybe the executioner will take of his mask to reveal the trusty sidekick. Maybe he’s already secretly untied his bindings. However it goes, surely his wits and his allies will get him out of—oh my god is that his head?! The good guys barely hanging on and dealing a critical infrastructure blow to an overwhelming enemy in just the nick of time is just a normal underdog storytelling trope. Boring. Even if they wanted that last scene, they could have upended expectations at other points. I was really hoping that instead of Melisandre managing to light the trench barricade just in time, the dead would just swarm and overwhelm her and her unsullied phalanx. That would have been great! And nothing else meaningfully changes. The Arya/Melisandre encounter could just have been earlier in the episode if you need it at all. One (maybe?) redeeming possibility will be that it turned out that Bran was actually _doing_ something when he was warging away during the battle. Did I miss something? He went into a flock of ravens, they flew through and around the battle, and then… he sat there all white-eyes for the next 30 minutes and nothing at all came of it? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/228 "2019-04-29T16:55:31Z")
For a minute there at the end I thought something was going to happen that REALLY would have been unprecedented and unique. As the Night King walked up to Bran, I thought that the two of them were actually going to have _dialog._ I was like, “holy shit, this is awesome, Bran is the only one who has the capability to speak to the NK and he’s the only one who the NK would deem worthy of actually speaking to.” After building him up as this voiceless, soulless, totally malevolent entity, I thought he and Bran were going to, like, negotiate some kind of truce. And I thought, “damn, I certainly didn’t see this coming.” And then, of course, it became abundantly clear that I did NOT, in fact, see it coming, because it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/229 "2019-04-29T16:55:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The only salvation might be if she told Arya to get out to the grove. Because otherwise Arya’s going there at that time from the middle of a castle in a battle was the most ridiculously contrived moment in a ridiculously contrived episode. She did tell her. That was the entire point of the scene of them talking. > [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t think the tactics were that bad. The Dothraki fight by charging across the steppe on their horses and mowing down infantry. So that is how they were used. The battle plan was designed to get the Night King in the open where Dany could kill him with dragon fire. So they had the Unsullied and the rest of the infantry make a stand while they strafed the wights with two dragons. The night king then used his dragon to fight the other two so they fell back behind the wall and trench since they didn’t have anymore dragons to help. > > If the night king had not been immune to dragon fire it would have worked. With the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the archers, the trebuchets, and the dragons it looked like they had killed most of the night kings original army. They successfully lured the night king to Bran as well. The tactics were awful. Cavalry only does that in movies. Charging straight at massed prepared infantry is suicide. See: Charge of the Light Brigade, extra credit see: Agincourt. Cavalry is used to hit the flanks and rear or exploit a break in a formation. Or you use them in guard, screen or cover missions. That was the case when it was horses and it’s still the case when it’s mechanized. A frontal charge into massed infantry in the dark had the obvious conclusion. Everybody dies. They wanted the Night King drawn into the open. They didn’t want everyone to die. Obstacles in depth to slow and funnel the enemy. Long range weapons zeroed in on where the enemy is funneled. Cavalry harassing the flanks. Infantry behind barricades. Air attacks as needed but hold back until the other dragon is in play. Maybe all your troops don’t die. The battle would take longer but there is room for exposition to cover time jumps. The tactics only work if the commanders wanted to sacrifice the lives of all their troops. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I don’t think the Iron islands sent people did they? If not they could be in the next battle. Theon had a small group of Iron Born with him. They were who “protected” Bran. > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > _I_ thought it would work because I thought dragonfire had created dragonglass…but then i thought about it and i guess theres no history of dragons or Targaryans being involved with battles with White Walkers. Am I misremembering or is dragonglass just another word for obsidian? I got the feeling that it’s primal nature is what made it effective as opposed to man-made steel. Not that it literally had a connection to dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/230 "2019-04-29T17:00:57Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > When Arya was protesting the brotherhood giving Gendry to her, she told Arya that she saw death in her eyes and she would kill many people. The look was Arya letting her know that the person she saw in the vision was the person she became. > > I got the idea that only the newly dead can be reanimated. > > They knew what lied ahead, a huge horde of the undead walking towards them. Attacking hordes of massed infantry is what Dothraki do best. > > He seemed to get stabbed around the solar plexus both times, though it was hard to see exactly where Arya stabbed him. Thanks. I disagree with you about #3, though - seemed to me they were riding into dark, unseen terrain and had no idea of the wights’ dispositions. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/231 "2019-04-29T17:01:22Z")
The night was possibly full of terror, but mostly very, very dark. I liked how the overall battle was impressive and well conducted. For instance the charge of the Dothrakis (even though it made mostly no sense) and their flames being extinguished so quickly, giving a sense of dread and doom, for instance. I should probably mention that the scenes were quite dark, and I generally couldn’t tell what was happening (for instance, I was completely wrong about the outcome of the fight between dragons) Except when the main characters were involved, at which point it was becoming ridiculously cliche. The undead mob can overwhelm whole regiments in a matter of minutes, but three surrounded and exhausted characters, on of them already down will get through, no problem. Not mentioning that those main characters were pretty much the only survivors of all fights. Obviously cowards who fled while the men they commanded heroically died holding their ground. If they wanted them to survive, they could at least have spared us the half a dozen “doomed and about to die but somehow surviving because another main character jumps in at the last moment” scenes each of them had and make their survival a bit more credible. It would also have been nice if the scenes had been a bit less dark and I could tell which character was involved. As many have said, not enough deaths (of main characters), a lot of cliche and not a single surprise except whom killed the night king. So, this episode was underwhelming despite being very well directed (apart from the lack of light that I should point out). And…the night king, the long winter, the army of the wights…that’s all there was to it after 7-8 years of building this threat? Just a supervillain who wants to kill everybody and is defeated in one episode in a perfectly predicable way? As someone said, this show could have been one of the greatest of all times, and they let the narrative go down to the level of your average predictable and cliched TV show. Very disappointing. And very dark. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/232 "2019-04-29T17:02:27Z")
My TV is only a couple of years old and I think it’s pretty good. The episode looked like shit on my tv. I was able to see everything and tell what was going on but it didn’t look good. I was going to scramble and try and change the contrast settings but then I just said screw it and watched it as is. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/233 "2019-04-29T17:06:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Thanks. I disagree with you about #3, though - seemed to me they were riding into dark, unseen terrain and had no idea of the wights’ dispositions. Even in the daytime it’s suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/234 "2019-04-29T17:06:22Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > …Am I misremembering or is dragonglass just another word for obsidian? I got the feeling that it’s primal nature is what made it effective as opposed to man-made steel. Not that it literally had a connection to dragons. Yes, Sam said obsidian = dragonglass both when they found the stash at the Fist of the First Men, and in talking to Stannis. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/235 "2019-04-29T17:06:30Z")
The tactics that bothered me the most is that the Dothraki and dragons weren’t making strafing runs on the army of the dead for the weeks since they broke through the wall. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/236 "2019-04-29T17:07:41Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > For a minute there at the end I thought something was going to happen that REALLY would have been unprecedented and unique. As the Night King walked up to Bran, I thought that the two of them were actually going to have _dialog._ I was like, “holy shit, this is awesome, Bran is the only one who has the capability to speak to the NK and he’s the only one who the NK would deem worthy of actually speaking to.” I vaguely hoped for it too. But I already had lost any illusion that the show would include anything truly original and unique, something I had believed for years watching it. So, it would have been very happily surprised if something like that (or anything really special or surprising) had happened. Unfortunately, it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/237 "2019-04-29T17:13:17Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Am I misremembering or is dragonglass just another word for obsidian? I got the feeling that it’s primal nature is what made it effective as opposed to man-made steel. Not that it literally had a connection to dragons. It is obsidian…but can be made into weapons that arnt brittle somehow. Well ultimately he was vulnerable cause it was Obsidian that made him. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/238 "2019-04-29T17:14:15Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > One (maybe?) redeeming possibility will be that it turned out that Bran was actually _doing_ something when he was warging away during the battle. Did I miss something? He went into a flock of ravens, they flew through and around the battle, and then… he sat there all white-eyes for the next 30 minutes and nothing at all came of it? He was looking through the 14 million possible outcomes of the battle to see if this was the one where they win. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/239 "2019-04-29T17:14:48Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > … > I also thought the moment with Sansa and Tyrion hiding behind the crypt was just full of emotion. So much was said by their faces without a word being spoken. > “Not today”. > … I was thinking: “I love you.” “I know.” ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/240 "2019-04-29T17:15:39Z")
**Loach** , the Cavalry was at least initially supported by a bombardment from the trebuchets, which makes it better tactics that 99% of fiction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=13)