# Game of Thrones 8.03 "The Long Night" 4/28/19 \[Show discussion\]

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Created:** [April 28, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190 "2019-04-28T20:36:26Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 13

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**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/241 "2019-04-29T17:17:43Z")

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> [@AK84](#):
>
> **Loach** , the Cavalry was at least initially supported by a bombardment from the trebuchets, which makes it better tactics that 99% of fiction.

A couple of volleys fired blindly into the darkness.

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**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/242 "2019-04-29T17:28:50Z")

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> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> The wights would have attacked even if the Dothraki hadn’t charged into battle with swords aflame. Perhaps this way the battle takes place far from the castle? Also the Dohthraki had no idea what they were up against, and riding into battle is their thing.

Who chose the tactical order of battle? Davos? Jon? Melisandre?  
Maybe getting Melisandre to light their swords on fire and send them in first was a political calculation to get rid of “Dany’s people”, and reduce her bargaining power in the end?  
Just a thought.

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**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/243 "2019-04-29T17:30:23Z")

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> [@Rusalka](#):
>
> What was the grand plan, leave Bran with only Theon and a handful of people to protect him, and then what? Of course Theon was going to die. Why is Bran so useless? Why was there no plan whatsoever? Arya was a good twist but that was completely unplanned, apparently.

Probably the same strategic mastermind that had their cavalry make a suicidal charge instead of using them for flanking, and placed the siege engines in front of the infantry line.

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**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/244 "2019-04-29T17:32:08Z")

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> [@Colibri](#):
>
> The Night King knows perfectly well about Valyrian steel and dragonglass. He saw Jon kill a White Walker at Hardhome, so he knows he has such a sword. He knows Meera killed a Walker with dragonglass.

Sorry poorly written. I meant that the NK didn’t know they had a ton of VS and DG weapons. As far as he knew it was just a few.

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**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/245 "2019-04-29T17:32:54Z")

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Highly disappointing overall. I have been saying that while the show has been going downhill for a long time, it could still pull off big set-pieces but now they have failed at that too. Many of the scenes were too dark to be exciting and while the the last 20 minutes or so seemed to gather some real momentum it was all undone by the death of the Night King which felt cheap and unearned.

This is a show which became rightly famous for not being afraid to kill its major characters but it’s striking how almost all of them have survived what was supposed to be an apocalyptic ordeal.

I will probably watch till the end out of inertia but I think I am done caring about the show. I still think the first three books and the corresponding episodes are some of the best storytelling I have ever seen. In the first couple of seasons I sometimes felt that the TV show was even better than the books and I had high expectations that it would perhaps become the definitive version of the story but clearly it was not to be.

What it shows is that it’s really hard to sustain the quality of storytelling of the early books and show. I guess we should be grateful for what we got and move on.

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**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/246 "2019-04-29T17:34:29Z")

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The waste of the Dothraki cavalry really destroyed the episode for me. I can think of no reason to use cavalry like that. They are raiders, suitable for harrying the oncoming army–and then flanking. That said, even if it was a military blunder, it did make for a great visual with the flaming swords being snuffed out like that.

I think maybe Bran warged into Theon for a bit. Theon was never all that great of a warrior–it even took him multiple swings to behead somebody when he occupied Winterfell. Now, all of a sudden, he’s Horatio at the bridge? I think Bran guided his weapons–thus the exchange where Bran thanked him before the suicide charge.

Hated the darkness. A film that can’t be seen isn’t much of a film.

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**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/247 "2019-04-29T17:35:48Z")

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I have always equated the Dothraki with the Mongols. The Mongols did not blindly charge massed infantry. If they did we never would’ve heard of them.

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**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/248 "2019-04-29T17:37:11Z")

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I think that people are exaggerating the extent to which earlier seasons avoided cliches. Yes, there have been a couple of instances where individuals who would typically have plot armor die, but throughout there have been dramatic-rescues-at-the-last-minute-of-apparently-doomed-characters, unexpected reversals of fortune, and a lot of other typical tropes of the genre.

Take for example the Battle of the Blackwater. People have been unfavorably comparing this battle to that one. But we have the following incidents:

-A magical or semi-magical strategy, wildfire, that apparently gives the victory to Joffrey’s forces by destroying most of Stannis’s fleet.

-A reversal when Stannis’s forces land and almost succeed in taking the city anyway.

-Another reversal when Tyrion organizes a sortie and appears to be winning.

-Another reversal when Tyrion is nearly killed and appears on the brink of death, but is saved in the nick of time by Pod.

-A final reversal by the unexpected deus-ex-machina arrival of Tywin and the Lannister-Tyrell forces to win the day. There was a slight suggestion that Tywin might be going there in a previous episode, but it was kept hidden for dramatic purposes. It’s pretty much the same cavalry comes to the rescue at the last minute scenario that we saw at the Battle of the Bastards with the Knights of the Vale.

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**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/249 "2019-04-29T17:40:28Z")

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> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> As someone said, this show could have been one of the greatest of all times, and they let the narrative go down to the level of your average predictable and cliched TV show. Very disappointing.

I have all the same complaints everyone else does, but nevertheless it’s still one of the greatest TV shows of all time.

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**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/250 "2019-04-29T17:40:42Z")

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I liked it.

I had no problem telling what was going on, although I have a good TV with great blacks (\<3 my plasma), properly calibrated, in a properly dark room, with a good streaming connection through HBO GO.

I’m also not sad that they didn’t kill more characters. They still gotta take on Cirsei, and are probably going to kill off a few more in that one. If you’re going to create a new good world, some good people need to be left.

My criticism is they set that up to not be believable. When they snuff out thousands of Dothraki, on horseback, in a matter of seconds, then nobody’s going to survive a pile of them coming after them in a sustained manner for a half hour. No one. By the time the wights made it to the Winterfell wall they should have been GREATLY pared down (and they COULD have done that with better Dragon management), but nope they were still piling and crawling all over each other. NO WAY anyone survives that. They could have easily made it more believable but didn’t.

I LOVED Arya taking out the NK. Fistpumped that part.

For people complaining she shouldn’t have been able to do that, of course she should. Why? BECAUSE SHE’S A FUCKING NINJA. In fact, she puts real world ninjas to shame.

Do I think GoT is gonna have a happy ending? Yeah, I do. A bittersweet one at least. And you know what? THAT would actually be subverting expectations, not killing everybody off.

Plus I think I know why they’re doing it. Benioff and Weiss are going to be doing the next batch of Star Wars films. They’re not going to want to be known as the guys that left GoT on a bummer note.

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**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/251 "2019-04-29T17:40:49Z")

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> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#):
>
> But the Night King’s death wasn’t anything like Ned Stark’s death. There was so much fanfare. There was literally a slow-motion, just-in-time, climax-of-multiple-fights-in-multiple-locations action-movie death. We don’t need to have Arya kill the Night King _just_ as he is about to kill Bran and _just_ as Jon Snow is exposed to the dragon wight and _just_ as all the other named characters are on the brink of being overwhelmed (for like the eighth time). A much much better and more early-season GoT death would be that she just drops on him as he’s walking through the courtyard. Death when you least expect it. Death in GoT doesn’t have to be heroic and scenic. It’s nasty and brutal and quick. Similarly, Theon shouldn’t get to make his heroic charge all the way down a row of wights. They should just close in and overwhelm him.
> 
> The reason Ned Stark’s death was surprising is that it contradicts all the normal tropes of storytelling. Like, how many times have we seen the main character rescued from what looked like a certain execution? Our lead character sure seems to be on the down and out, but don’t worry, he’s got an ace up his sleeve. Maybe the executioner will take of his mask to reveal the trusty sidekick. Maybe he’s already secretly untied his bindings. However it goes, surely his wits and his allies will get him out of—oh my god is that his head?!
> 
> The good guys barely hanging on and dealing a critical infrastructure blow to an overwhelming enemy in just the nick of time is just a normal underdog storytelling trope. Boring.
> 
> Even if they wanted that last scene, they could have upended expectations at other points. I was really hoping that instead of Melisandre managing to light the trench barricade just in time, the dead would just swarm and overwhelm her and her unsullied phalanx. That would have been great! And nothing else meaningfully changes. The Arya/Melisandre encounter could just have been earlier in the episode if you need it at all.
> 
> One (maybe?) redeeming possibility will be that it turned out that Bran was actually _doing_ something when he was warging away during the battle. Did I miss something? He went into a flock of ravens, they flew through and around the battle, and then… he sat there all white-eyes for the next 30 minutes and nothing at all came of it?

I actually agree with you here…my statement was directed at the people who thought “How could they have killed the Night King so quickly? He was supposed to be the Big Bad of the series; it should have taken much longer to defeat him.” He died so quickly because he was _not_ ‘the Big Bad’ of the series, just as Ned was _not_ ‘the Hero’ of the series.

As for the circumstances that let up to the moment of his death, I think you’re spot on. Things could have been done in a much more satisfying manner.

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**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/252 "2019-04-29T17:40:57Z")

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> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Sorry poorly written. I meant that the NK didn’t know they had a ton of VS and DG weapons. As far as he knew it was just a few.

They had a bunch of dragon glass but only a handful of Valerian steel weapons. Rare and very expensive. Jon, Jorah, Arya, Brienne and Jaime may have been the only ones. Maybe I’m forgetting a couple.

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**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/253 "2019-04-29T17:42:08Z")

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> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Sorry poorly written. I meant that the NK didn’t know they had a ton of VS and DG weapons. As far as he knew it was just a few.

They only had five Valyrian steel weapons among all of them. And the Night King employed a strategy based on knowing they might have had weapons that could kill Walkers. He also knew they had two dragons. There’s no reason to think he didn’t know what he was up against.

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**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/254 "2019-04-29T17:42:38Z")

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Counterattacks aren’t reversals or plot armor. The top 3 of those bullets are totally fine. 4th is borderline. I mean, Tyrion’s squire protected him as he should. 5th is fine as far as turning the battle (Tywin mentions a fast march before he leaves Harrenhall, we just don’t know where he’s going), the timing wrt Tyrion is iffy, sure.

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**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/255 "2019-04-29T17:43:01Z")

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> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> Why did Arya and the Red Witch look at each other so meaningfully when RW first arrived at Winterfell? Remind me of their past dealings, please.

She was on her list. For taking Genry off to be killed for Stannis.

So was the Hound, though technically, she left him for dead, so not really on there anymore.

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**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/256 "2019-04-29T17:44:38Z")

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> [@Loach](#):
>
> Jon, Jorah, Arya, Brienne and Jaime may have been the only ones. Maybe I’m forgetting a couple.

No, that’s everyone who had Valyrian steel in the battle. The only weapon that was used to take out a White Walker (the Night King) was Arya’s. So much for Checkov’s swords.

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**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/257 "2019-04-29T17:51:28Z")

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One thing that bothered me about the crypt scenes was that both Tyrion and Sansa were armed with dragon glass but I don’t think we saw either of them trying to take out any wights. Nice that they could share a special moment while women and children were getting ripped apart:rolleyes:.

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/258 "2019-04-29T17:56:18Z")

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Re: Theon at the end.

When Theon charges the Night King, my immediate thought was ‘He’s violating the first law of aikido!\* You let the opponent charge _you!_’

- OK, I don’t know aikido. Nevertheless.

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**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/259 "2019-04-29T17:57:19Z")

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> [@Snarky\_Kong](#):
>
> 4th is borderline. I mean, Tyrion’s squire protected him as he should. 5th is fine as far as turning the battle (Tywin mentions a fast march before he leaves Harrenhall, we just don’t know where he’s going), the timing wrt Tyrion is iffy, sure.

I’m sure I could find plenty of other instances of characters who by all rights should be dead but were saved at the last second in earlier seasons (e.g. Brienne being rescued from the bear by Jaime). And if that was fine at the Blackwater, then the very similar arrival of the Knights of the Vale was fine for the Battle of the Bastards. Sansa had written to Littlefinger for help, and Littlefinger had previously gotten Robin to approve helping Jon. Similarly we were were mostly kept in the dark about whether they were on their way.

Speaking of the Knights of the Vale, Lord Royce was conspicuous by his absence during the last battle. He was certainly an expendable character.

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**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/260 "2019-04-29T17:58:58Z")

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> [@AK84](#):
>
> **Loach** , the Cavalry was at least initially supported by a bombardment from the trebuchets, which makes it better tactics that 99% of fiction.

Trebuchets that probably took weeks to build and apparently fired once each. The correct time to start using them being apparently just one second before the cavalry engage the ennemy and it’s not possible to use them anymore.

Still, the whole scene was quite good dramatically.

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