# Game of Thrones 8.03 "The Long Night" 4/28/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190 "2019-04-28T20:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/341 "2019-04-29T22:04:54Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Looked really cool though, didn’t it? A charge into an enemy you understand and can see? I agree. Against an unknown enemy in the dark and the snow? I would like to think they’re smarter than that. That being said, the visuals were damn near orgasmic. GoT just knows how to make shit look epic. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/342 "2019-04-29T22:06:35Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Also, about all the heroes surviving: NOW when they’re killed by more predictable Lannister skullduggery it will be even that much more unjust. “X survived at Winterfell, maybe even Battle of the Bastards, and got taken down by a poison kiss, or the pox, or a funny whelk.” That kind of echoes Ned The Badass being an awesome soldier and just ruler…getting his head lopped off at the word of an emo teenager. I suspect that you may be correct here. Sure, all the heroes survived \*this \*battle (as impossible as that should have been), but that doesn’t guarantee a happy ending for any of them. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/343 "2019-04-29T22:09:10Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Looks like 90 percent of the unsullied survived, so about 8 k Does it? Do you think they survived outside the gates of Winterfell, or were there 8k unsullied inside somehow? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/344 "2019-04-29T22:09:38Z")
Part of the problem is that I was describing this episode as the “climactic battle of the series” and people said that this wasn’t the climax, the battle with Cersei was the climax. But a running, very well established theme of the entire show was, basically, “if you allow the politics and squabbles and fighting over power to distract you, this existential threat looming on the horizon is going to come in and extinguish all life” - it was totally clear that the NK and the army of the dead was the real threat all along, and all of the politics and infighting were a distraction from it. But now, by defeating the NK at this stage, what they’re saying is “oh, the battle with Cersei is actually the real battle, the army of the dead was just there to kill a lot of Dany’s armies and one of her dragons so the odds were closer for the final fight” which is, quite frankly, shitting over a whole lot of thematic and narrative work they’ve done over 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![carnalito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@carnalito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnalito)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/345 "2019-04-29T22:12:30Z")
F\*cking EPIC episode. Was on my toes the whole time. wow One thing i dont understand is how there could be so many survivors?! Felt like the whole lot got slaughtered. I mean where were they hiding? And wtf was up with that Dothraki charge? Sure it was spectacur TV, but no commander in their right mind would have all their cavalary ride into something unknown. All that said, still the most thrilling piece of TV ive ever watched. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/346 "2019-04-29T22:13:50Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > That’s not me. I’m not looking for “blood porn”. What I was looking for was a dramatic sense of danger. The possibility that the battle could go either way, that characters _could_ be killed - that’s what makes watching a battle compelling. > > Most of the previous action scenes in this show had that. Hardhome felt like a significant fraction of the Night’s Watch could’ve died (and the wildlings). Maybe it’d be hard to believe that main character Jon Snow himself would die, but there was definitely tension there. Battle of the Bastards felt like it could go badly for the Starks. I actually hated the Deus Ex Sansa way that it ended (and talked about that at length), but during the actual battle, there’s real tension there. It feels like it can go either way. The wildlings very well could’ve won the Battle of the Wall, changing the game up a bit. > > But this battle didn’t have that. As soon as they used the Dothraki slaughter to show that “oh shit, the army of the dead might actually win”, they immediately undermined it by having Jorah come back unscathed, and then ridiculously, over the top undermined it by countless scenes in which Brienne, Podrick, Jaime, and Grey Worm were completely swarmed with undead, surrounded by them, covered on top with them, overpowered by them… and then were just fine two scenes later with no explanation. > > Almost every other battle scene in the show (with the possible exception of the retarded capture a wight plotline of last scene) had that underlying tension that anything could happen. And before you say “well, shows don’t kill their main characters”, this show uniquely has the credibility to do exactly that because it has done it before. > > So the show has a track record of creating battles with dramatic tension and that what appear to be main characters aren’t invincible, and we have a unique 8 year investment in these characters, so we naturally very much care about them, and we should be on the edge of our seats and sick to our stomach when the battle seems to be going poorly. The show has a unique position to make 8 years of trope breaking and investment of characters amount to one of the most tense, suspenseful battles of all time. > > But they showed us early on that no one was really in danger. The good guys were going to win. Anyone who died was going to die exactly how you’d expect them to die, exactly like they’d have chosen to die. > > That’s not wanting blood porn. That’s wanting payoff and good storytelling after 8 years of investment. Not a sudden change from a groundbreaking show into a standard cliche fantasy/superhero movie. I know you’re not in the blood porn camp, but I think lots of the noise on the interwebs is of that ilk. Generally speaking I think you and I totally agree on the flaws. Perhaps the question is more if we’re willing to enjoy it in spite of them or if we’re not. I’d argue that Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, Castle Black and Fist of the First Men and a bunch of other previous battles had the exact same plot armor issues. The biggest difference is those were mostly 15-20 minute sequences with one or two close calls. This was 80+ minutes with proportionally as many close calls and triple the number of “heroes” on screen so it was way more noticeable. I’m don’t see this as a big departure from what this show is now and I give them credit for going big in spite of these flaws. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/347 "2019-04-29T22:19:37Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I’d argue that Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, Castle Black and Fist of the First Men and a bunch of other previous battles had the exact same plot armor issues. The biggest difference is those were mostly 15-20 minute sequences with one or two close calls. This was 80+ minutes with proportionally as many close calls and triple the number of “heroes” on screen so it was way more noticeable. I’m don’t see this as a big departure from what this show is now and I give them credit for going big in spite of these flaws. Same with the first big one, Blackwater. There were a bunch of major characters there but the only death I can think of is Davos’ son. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/348 "2019-04-29T22:24:58Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Also, about all the heroes surviving: NOW when they’re killed by more predictable Lannister skullduggery it will be even that much more unjust. “X survived at Winterfell, maybe even Battle of the Bastards, and got taken down by a poison kiss, or the pox, or a funny whelk.” That kind of echoes Ned The Badass being an awesome soldier and just ruler…getting his head lopped off at the word of an emo teenager. What many of us are all saying in many different ways: the death of Ned Stark is still paying dividends, 8 years later. We’re still on edge, thinking that any major character is expendable, despite the evidence to the contrary: that there is a significant difference between the GRRM part of the story and the current D&D part. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/349 "2019-04-29T22:28:22Z")
It’s not about the main characters surviving. I’m fine with that. It’s HOW they survive. It was the repeated, manipulative “Oh no! X just went down under a horde of the dead! He’s finished!”, only to find out that somehow the person is still alive and now somewhere else, about to be piled on by another horde - which he will also survive. Take the Battle of the Blackwater. Tyrion didn’t die, but it wasn’t because he was heroic. He didn’t die because he was useless in battle and then struck with a blow that almost did kill him, but took him out of the fight. If you’re going to save the main characters, do it in a way that’s believable. If Tyrion has to survive, you could use his size to have him hide in something no one would think of looking in. If Jamie is to survive, do it by having him supervise because of his one-handed nature or something like that. If Jorah has to die gallantly saving Daeneris, don’t send him charging to certain death, only to miraculously be the only riding survivor. Another way, which would have killed two ravens with one stone, would have been to have Bran look after the people he knows, using his powers to level the playing field. Have Brienne about to go down to a horde, when suddenly something happens that Bran was controlling. Show a scene from his. Three Eyed Raven vision, hovering over the battle, seeing a known person about to fall then doing something to save him. That would have worked fine for me. We save the characters and show why Bran was important. Instead, Bran was useless and the characters were saved by plot armor. What a wasted opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/350 "2019-04-29T22:32:56Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If Jorah has to die gallantly saving Daeneris, don’t send him charging to certain death, only to miraculously be the only riding survivor… I’ve seen this posted multiple times. Jorah was not the only survivor. We saw multiple Dothraki running back. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/351 "2019-04-29T22:38:34Z")
That’s why I said “The only surviving rider.” The Dothraki are superlative horsemen. Not a single one of them managed to stay on their mounts, but Ser Jorah did. I assumed the other survivors were the ones near the rear who probably got knocked off their panicked horses and went running for safety. Jorah was at the very forefront of that huge wave of undead. How the hell does he stay on his horse? Actually, as I’m typing that I just realized they intentionally showed Jorah slow down and allow the Dothraki to go riding past him. I’m not sure why he did that, but I guess it gives him a survival ‘out’ in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/352 "2019-04-29T22:40:57Z")
By the way, when the Night’s King threw the spear at Daeneris, I was sure I heard a grunt indicating that Daeneris was hit. Did anyone else hear that? If so, I guess it was yet another little bit of manipulation to raise the tension, since she was fine. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/353 "2019-04-29T22:42:08Z")
I think she grunted to jerk her Dragon to the side to dodge it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/354 "2019-04-29T22:42:46Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I’d argue that Battle of the Bastards, Hardhome, Castle Black and Fist of the First Men and a bunch of other previous battles had the exact same plot armor issues. The biggest difference is those were mostly 15-20 minute sequences with one or two close calls. This was 80+ minutes with proportionally as many close calls and triple the number of “heroes” on screen so it was way more noticeable. I’m don’t see this as a big departure from what this show is now and I give them credit for going big in spite of these flaws. We’ve seen hardly any major characters, good or bad, actually die in battle or combat during the entire show. This was almost the first time we’ve seen major characters die heroically defending more important characters, and in this episode we have four: Jorah/Danaerys, Theon/Bran, Beric/Arya, and Edd/Sam. (Maybe Hodor and Benjen might count. Ygritte died in battle but was trying to kill Jon. Barriston Selmy died in a minor skirmish. The Blackfish died futilely after being betrayed.) In fact, more major characters died in this episode than any other except the season six finale, including the Sept of Baelor explosion and the killing of Walder and other Freys. Nearly all the deaths of major characters to this point have been by treachery, murder, assassination, suicide, execution, or mercy killing. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/355 "2019-04-29T22:43:17Z")
“Jerking her dragon.” So that’s what kids are calling it these days. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/356 "2019-04-29T22:45:24Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I’ve seen this posted multiple times. Jorah was not the only survivor. We saw multiple Dothraki running back. Yes, as we will see in the next episode I’m sure, there are a lot of Dothraki, Unsullied, Wildlings, Vale & Northern soldiers left alive. Shame on the show for making it look otherwise, it’s getting them a lot of grief. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/357 "2019-04-29T22:47:06Z")
Syrio Forel died in combat saving Arya. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/358 "2019-04-29T22:52:04Z")
I would have assumed from this episode that about 95% of the Dothraki are dead (we saw a handful of survivors running back without their horses), Maybe 50% of the Unsullied (they were retreating en masse back into Winterfell, but many would have died there when the dead came over the walls), and I don’t know how many wildlings, as it wasn’t clear in the show just where they all were and what they were doing. We saw that group that Tormund, Sam, Beric and the Hound were in, but the rest is confusing). I assumed they killed off all the Dothraki because otherwise Daeneris would have some explaining to do if she became Queen while having hordes of followers who only exist to rape and pillage. If lots of Dothraki are still alive, that leaves that problem intact. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/359 "2019-04-29T22:52:37Z")
On rewatching the cavalry sequence, I’m a little surprised the Dothraki were down with having their weapons flame up, considering what they thought about “witches” in S1 ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/360 "2019-04-29T22:53:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If you melt Valyrian steel, it isn’t Valyrian steel any more. Valyrian steel isn’t a particular material, its qualities depend on how it is made. And that takes a very special expertise. OK, I guess you can’t argue about magical things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=19)