# Game of Thrones 8.03 "The Long Night" 4/28/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190 "2019-04-28T20:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/461 "2019-04-30T17:16:34Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > The book, the show and George himself are all unambiguous on the fact that Valyrian Steel cannot just be melted down and recast by normal means. There is no gray area here. The original premise is directly contradicted by the source material…have no idea what’s left to debate. What contradicts the idea that melting is normal, but the folding and heat treatment gives Valyrian steel its sharpness and strength? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/462 "2019-04-30T17:17:33Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > - We thought the Night King must be Targaeryan, standing in the dragon fire like that. I suspect the writers will ignore any follow-up though. > … > - Bran was wasted, given all of the prior seasons of significance build-up. We needed him to do more than just worg into some ravens. I’d hoped he would take over a dragon, or take over Theon, or something to justify all of the plot fuss spent on him. > … > - The Hound’s fear of fire and yet-another-breakdown felt trite, like the writers have dismissed the heroic growth in his character. My son observed the NK may have been a Targ as well because of that. And it’s a strong proposition, and there’s little debate about whether or not the Targs have a right to the throne they built, and wouldn’t it be interesting if NK showed up at the Red Keep to claim the big uncomfy chair but…so what? He’s totes dead now. Kind of reduces him to the creepy branch of the family nobody likes to talk about. I don’t think we’re done with Bran yet. Because all he did was be bait, and because he warged the ravens but none of the usual reporting happened. Where’d he go, what’d he see, and what does it mean?–they usually answer these things when someone wargs. The Hound is askeered of what skeers The Hound. He may have become less of a sociopath, but phobias run deeper than morality and this last battle highlighted his pyrophobia is as strong as ever. I’m certain this fact will not be lost on The Mountain when their reckoning comes. And that The Hound will have to overcome it to overcome him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/463 "2019-04-30T17:26:39Z")
I think this is the exchange that kicked off this tangent – > [@Colibri](#): > > Because the art of working Valyrian steel has mostly been lost. When Ned Stark’s Ice was remade into two swords, they had to bring in a special smith from Essos. There wasn’t anyone available at Winterfell who could have reworked Valyrian steel. > [@AnalogSignal](#): > > Actually, do you really need that much expertise? > [ol] > [li]Put one Valyrian sword in the hottest oven in Winterfell. [/li][li]Melt the Valyrian steel into a liquid. [/li][li]Dip 100 regular steel arrows into the Valyrian liquid goop. [/li][li]Distribute the Valyrian-plated arrowheads to the finest archers in Winterfell.[/li][li]Shoot the bad guy. Save the world.[/li][/ol] > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Google “Damascus steel” if you want a real-world example. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Ice was melted down to make Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail. It’s still Valyrian steel after being melted. There is a limited supply of Valyrian steel in the world. There isn’t going to be any more. Ice was remade into who Valyrian steel swords with the aid of one of only three living smiths who are capable of working with Valyrian steel. Those smiths are not available at Winterfell. So, period. Nothing can be done to increase the supply of, or to modify the existing Valyrian steel swords into some other form, like arrowheads or coatings. It doesn’t matter what you think you know about metallurgy or swordsmithery or what you think you saw happening to Ice. That’s what the show tells us. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/464 "2019-04-30T17:39:36Z")
Just watched a bunch of snippets from the show, but I couldn’t find it specifically stated whether Xaro Xhoan Daxos’s vault is made of Valyrian steel. Anybody know? ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/465 "2019-04-30T17:44:39Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Just watched a bunch of snippets from the show, but I couldn’t find it specifically stated whether Xaro Xhoan Daxos’s vault is made of Valyrian steel. Anybody know? According to [this](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Valyrian_stone), it’s made of Valyrian stone. > [@](#): > > Valyrian stone is a hard type of stone, originating from Valyria. It is apparently harder than any other known type of stone. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/466 "2019-04-30T17:44:54Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > [As to why the Red Witch and Arya stared at each other] She was on her list. For taking Gen[d]ry off to be killed for Stannis… Ah, got it. Thanks. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > Defensive trebuchets are a real historical thing. Usually they were small traction trebuchets (bunch of guys pulling on ropes rather than giant counterweight) shooting from the walls, not regular trebuchets outside your walls… They had them at Minas Tirith in _LOTR:ROTK_, too. > [@EllisDee](#): > > …[The NK] can raise any dead body regardless how long ago they died (thus the crypts) and those risen stay risen until permanently killed by dragonglass, Valyrian steel or fire. We saw the demonstration one in King’s Landing keep fighting even after being cut in half. (Both halves!) > > Meaning once a wight is actually killed, it’s dead forever and can’t be raised again… OK, thanks. > [@Omniscient](#): > > …It happened much earlier in screen time, but we don’t really know if it was that long chronologically. Much of that action for the different characters may be happening simultaneously in spite of the way they were portrayed. More practically, they had to space it out so you’re forget about it while Jon’s mad charge and Theon’s stand takes place… That’s what I charitably assumed, but there were still too many shots of Jaime, Brienne, Pod et al. being overrun by wights and then being fine a few scenes later. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > There is. Dragonglass is obsidian (which is somehow unlike real obsidian because it can be cast, but whatever) and dragonbone is actual bones from actual dragons. I don’t have any problem accepting that Westerosi obsidian is not like Earth obsidian. They also have ravens that can be trained as carrier pigeons and fly the length of South America in a few days. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Syrio Forel died in combat saving Arya. Probably. Deep down I still hope we see him again - but I really doubt we will. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/467 "2019-04-30T17:51:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yeah, it’s called “circle behind the ballistas and light them up with dragon fire” From the intro sequence, the ballistas would be kept safely inside the building, firing through ports, I guess, so this wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/468 "2019-04-30T17:57:47Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > According to [this](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Valyrian_stone), it’s made of Valyrian stone. Thanks! I wonder (though I’m sure it’s nowhere mentioned in the show) whether Valyrian stone is Valyrian steel ore. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/469 "2019-04-30T17:59:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > From the intro sequence, the ballistas would be kept safely inside the building, firing through ports, I guess, so this wouldn’t work. That’s really bad planning, as it would restrict their line of fire to the point that they would be useless. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/470 "2019-04-30T18:07:40Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Last try…Valyrian Steel is more than just it’s composition. It’s not just a ratio of metals and additives. Melting it down fundamentally changes it’s structure and presumably alters or destroys the magic within. > > As has been stated multiple times earlier in the thread, the closest real-world analogy is Damascus steel. If you take a Damascus knife and melt it down and create a billet, you no longer have a “Damascus” steel billet. You have a plain old steel billet with no special qualities whatsoever. The idea that it is similar to Damascus steel is totally an assumption on your part. Thinking that melting it down changes its structure and alters its magic is also an arbitrary assumption on your part (and proved false by Ned’s blade being melted and the new blades still being Valyrian steel). The problem here is that you’re arguing on the basis of ideas that are entirely born in your imagination. You think people are wrong because they don’t make the same arbitrary assumptions you do. No amount of you personally wanting to believe that Valyrian steel is similar to Damascus steel makes it so. And as soon as “magic” in involved, as you believe yourself, you can’t make any reliable assumption anyway. The reason why the three guys are the only ones able to forge Valyrian steel might be because they’re the only ones knowing the exact amount of menstrual blood of a virgin that must be poured in the melting metal, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/471 "2019-04-30T18:16:51Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > The book, the show and George himself are all unambiguous on the fact that Valyrian Steel cannot just be melted down and recast by normal means. There is no gray area here. The original premise is directly contradicted by the source material…have no idea what’s left to debate. I don’t know about the books, but please explain where in the show it is explained that it can’t be melted and recast by normal means, when the only scene in the show where this issue is dealt with precisely shows it being melted down and recast with no indication that it’s not “by normal means”. The only thing we’re told is that very few people know how to forge it for reasons unknown. All the rest of what you state might come from the books or might come from your imagination, but it definitely doesn’t come from the show. And also you can’t really complain about the thread being hijacked and repeatedly in the very same posts keep talking about the topic. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/472 "2019-04-30T18:23:06Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s really bad planning, as it would restrict their line of fire to the point that they would be useless. Yes, but as pointed out by the posters I was responding to, it would prevent them from being easily destroyed by dragon fire. I assume you could have many of them, each covering a specific area. Anyway, what I wrote is solely based on what we see in the intro sequence. Not a proof that they’ll be actually disposed this way. Besides, I’m not sure anybody should be surprised by bad military planning at this point in the show. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/473 "2019-04-30T18:26:28Z")
The Valyrian steel tangent is beginning to sound like a debate on how a swallow can carry a coconut; but more argumentative and less rational. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/474 "2019-04-30T18:29:57Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Anyway, what I wrote is solely based on what we see in the intro sequence. Not a proof that they’ll be actually disposed this way. I think the intro sequence is just a callback to Cersei and Qyburn testing the new ballista on the old dragon skull. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/475 "2019-04-30T18:34:02Z")
You know what would have been awesome? Bran taking over the NK with warging and winning the battle that way. Maybe by marching them to King’s Landing. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/476 "2019-04-30T18:38:34Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t know about the books, but please explain where in the show it is explained that it can’t be melted and recast by normal means, when the only scene in the show where this issue is dealt with precisely shows it being melted down and recast with no indication that it’s not “by normal means”. > > The only thing we’re told is that very few people know how to forge it for reasons unknown. All the rest of what you state might come from the books or might come from your imagination, but it definitely doesn’t come from the show. My fanwank is Valyrian steel has microscopic nodules of dragonglass in it. The trick for working it is insuring the nodules are evenly distributed and it is shaped and sharpened in such a way so the nodules add to the strength and durability of the edge. Obviously they can’t make more, even if they knew what makes it special. If it were just Damascus steel then the ordinary blacksmiths could always make more. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/477 "2019-04-30T18:43:43Z")
You know what would have been cool and totally unexpected? If, instead of reaching for his weapon, the Night King s…l…o,w,l,y bent the knee. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/478 "2019-04-30T18:43:57Z")
I know the ballista is supposed to be an anti-dragon weapon in the show, but really a ballista is a useless weapon against a flying target. You would essentially have to hope that it flies directly into your bolt, as the ballista can’t really be aimed in real time. All the dragons have to do is fly unpredictably and the ballista is useless. If you had a hundred of them lined up to fire right down an obvious approach lane for a dragon maybe you could fire a huge volley and hope to get a lucky hit, but that’s about it. On the other hand, if Rickon had run a serpentine pattern he’d still be alive, so… ---
**Author:** ![pigtwo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pigtwo/32/18234_2.png) [@pigtwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pigtwo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/479 "2019-04-30T18:47:44Z")
I’m pretty curious what the tone is going to be for the rest of the season. If I’m being unbiased by personalities Cersei is barely even a threat in comparison to the NK. From the perspective of humanity, who cares who sits on the Iron Throne? It’s not like Cersei wants to destroy the world or open up a portal to a demon universe. She just wants power. The difference between Cersei, Dany, or Hot Pie sitting on the throne is pretty immaterial in comparison to having all of Westeros killed by the NK. After the episode ended I kind of felt like that was the real climax of the series. Everything else is just clean up. Cersei being on the Iron Throne really only has major significance in reference to defending the NK attack. Now that that problem is solved it seems a little hollow. I vaguely remember there being a ton or worry about starvation due to the coming extra long winter in the beginning of the series. Those worries seem to have just gone away. Maybe the NK was making the winter longer and so that is no longer an issue? Maybe all the conveniently located and refrigerated bodies around Winterfell can support them through the winter. Dibs on Jorah’s thigh meat! ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/480 "2019-04-30T18:51:55Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > We were only shown Bran warging into the ravens, so I think we can assume he didn’t warg into Ghost. Maybe, but the more I think about it, the more I’ve convinced myself, on the grounds of painfully thin supposition, that Bran warged into Ghost. Stalking the Night King from the ground, maybe, or up to some other business we’ll (hopefully) find out about next episode. What we saw of Bran’s warging was largely pointless. The ravens couldn’t see much in the blizzard, and Bran would have quickly realized that. So he wouldn’t have spent the majority of the episode uselessly warging, but would have hopped into something better suited to showing him what he needed to know. Ghost, I imagine, because I don’t think the wolf died offscreen (a la Shaggydog) during the Dothraki charge. Ghost rates a Summer death scene, at least. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=25)