# Game of Thrones 8.03 "The Long Night" 4/28/19 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190 "2019-04-28T20:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/501 "2019-04-30T19:54:24Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > Yeah, the Lord of Light is a dick but he did manage to kill the Night King. No he didn’t. That was Arya. Team effort, really, but most of the team weren’t LoL adherents. ---
**Author:** ![infinitii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e8c25b/32.png) [@infinitii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infinitii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/502 "2019-04-30T19:56:03Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The show has suggested that Gendry was going to be significant, because he has royal blood. Of course, that was in the days when someone with royal blood could be used to do magic and I think the show is stepping away from that (especially as Melisandre is gone). > > But perhaps as a child of Robert Baratheon, he has a claim on the throne? Is the show going to end with a court case to decide who has the strongest claim? The baby forming in Arya’s womb will most likely come out on top. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/503 "2019-04-30T19:56:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Gendry was shown in the battle many times. He started off on the front lines, then miraculously made it back into Winterfell, where he miraculously survived many pile-ons of dead things, like the other main characters. I thought that was Pod. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/504 "2019-04-30T20:01:39Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No he didn’t. That was Arya. Team effort, really, but most of the team weren’t LoL adherents. I was told here that the Lord of Light, the Red God, and the Many Faced God were all the same. Was I misinformed? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/505 "2019-04-30T20:02:05Z")
I think it was both of them. Pod was fighting beside Brienne and Jamie, Gendry was, I think, fighting beside The Hound, Beric Dondarian, etc. We didn’t see Gendry die, but I can’t remember if we saw him alive at the very end either. But the general rule is that major characters don’t die off-screen deaths, so Gendry is almost certainly still around. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/506 "2019-04-30T20:33:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I was told here that the Lord of Light, the Red God, and the Many Faced God were all the same. Was I misinformed? The Red God and the LoL are the same. The Many Faced God is basically _all_ gods put together though. The Faceless Men believe that all gods that people worship are just different faces of the one Many-Faced God, who is the God of Death. And Arya was raised with the Old Gods and almost certainly still believes in them, too. Religion is a fuzzy concept on this show. Just because Mellisandre had some magic powers and her “Night is Dark and Full of Terrors” speech came true doesn’t mean the LoL is real in this universe, anymore than Bran warging and using the weirwoods proves the Old Gods are real. Or that Euron coming back from drowning proves the Drowned God exists. And what about the Lamb God that Mirri Maz Durr worshiped? She pulled off arguably the greatest miracle on the show. Pretty sure we’ve seen _zero_ evidence for the Seven existing or having any real power though. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/507 "2019-04-30T20:52:32Z")
This episode included the second tragic name-origin story. First we had Hodor and “hold the door,” and this time it was Beric and his hallway beric-ade. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/508 "2019-04-30T20:52:34Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No he didn’t. That was Arya. Team effort, really, but most of the team weren’t LoL adherents. They don’t have to believe in him to be used by him. And who besides Melisandre was on team Arya? Everyone is going to be surprised as hell that she pulled that off. A lot of folks knew she was a badass but Night King-killing badass? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/509 "2019-04-30T21:01:02Z")
Jaqen H’ghar specifically says on the show that he worships ‘The Red God’. That’s why I have always believed that they intentionally sought out and trained Arya, then let her go, so that she could aid in the fight against the white walkers. That’s why Jaqen was in Westeros in the first place - to find Arya, protect her, and get her to voluntarily go to Braavos to be trained. In my opinion. Although death is one of the faces of the ‘Many Faced God’, that doesn’t mean they would choose the Army of the dead. The faceless men see death as a ‘gift’ to those who need it - either to end suffering, or at a natural end to life, or to correct injustice for a fee - gotta pay for that snazzy huge house of Black and White somehow. The kind of indiscriminate death that the Night’s King was bringing is not what they want, and is probably heretical to their beliefs. Religion in Westeros is strange and hard to parse sometimes, but my understanding is that the Lord of Light IS the many-faced God. All the other Gods in the show are aspects of the LoL, or the Red God. And it’s clear which side the Lord of Light is on. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/510 "2019-04-30T21:02:24Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Pretty sure we’ve seen _zero_ evidence for the Seven existing or having any real power though. Yes, it’s interesting that the most prevalent religion in Westeros, and the analogy for the medieval Catholic Church, seems to have no supernatural power or be capable of working miracles, while various animistic or “pagan” religions do. Another thing that I don’t think we’ve seen is an actual “ghost” in the sense of the spirit of a dead person that manifests itself to living people. And Melisandre is puzzled when both Jon and Beric tell her they experienced nothing between their death(s) and being resurrected. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/511 "2019-04-30T21:03:55Z")
As for the Night King being a Targaeryan because he could withstand fire. Nuts. Not when his clothes stayed whole without a touch of scorch marks. Dany, at least, emerged naked and covered in soot from her first fire. The NK survived because magic. The NK was killed because magic. Don’t waste time trying to rationalize magic. We haven’t been given the rules of GoT magic, and that’s clearly because the writers will use magic however and whenever they feel. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/512 "2019-04-30T21:11:33Z")
You CANNOT rework Valerian steel! You _can_, however, walk into Mordor. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/513 "2019-04-30T21:17:11Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Some military analysis of “Team Alive’s” strategy in the battle [here](https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/battle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html). It wasn’t quite as bad as we might think. A lot of the seemingly bad decisions come down to low-odds gambles in the absence of better choices. > > And as for fighting outside Winterfell instead of staying within its walls: > > > [@](#): > > > > We should be clear here about Team Alive’s strategy; it needed to induce a fight in order to avoid the threat of a prolonged siege. With horses, dragons, and lots of infantry, Team Alive would consume food at a much greater rate than Team Dead, which, uniquely among fighting forces, wouldn’t consume food at all. Team Alive wanted to lure Team Dead into battle before the gates of Winterfell because it wanted to either destroy the Night King’s army or the Night King himself. This meant accepting battle under disadvantageous circumstances, including darkness. Great link! Thanks for posting it. This is the best analysis of the battle I’ve seen to date. With that said, while the author makes a great point regarding the threat of a prolonged siege to Team Alive, the Army of the Dead had never shown any tendency to engage in siege tactics. The author put in words another thought that I’d had while watching the show: > [@](#): > > The Night King failed to successfully isolate and ambush Drogon and Rhaegal, and eventually found himself forcibly dismounted by the combined efforts of Team Alive’s dragon riders. Had Daenerys Targaryen simply instructed Drogon to land near the Night King and either tear him to pieces or hold him until Jon Snow arrived with Valyrian steel, the battle might have ended much sooner. I’m sure it was to raise the dramatic tension in the reveal that the NK had survived the dragonfire attack, but at the time I wondered why Drogon didn’t accompany the dragonfire blast with a physical attack. There are some other great quotes and asides (like referring to Arya as a Special Forces asset) in that link: > [@](#): > > The inexperience of Team Alive in waging battle against the dead was palpable, but Team Dead also lacked experience fighting a battle of this scale against a multifaceted force of the living. Unfortunately, the “lessons learned” department of Team Dead likely crumbled to dust shortly after the Night King. > > The views expressed here are the personal views of Farley and do not necessarily reflect the official views of the Department of Defense, the U.S. Army, or the Army War College on the Battle of Winterfell. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/514 "2019-04-30T21:25:34Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I’m sure it was to raise the dramatic tension in the reveal that the NK had survived the dragonfire attack, but at the time I wondered why Drogon didn’t accompany the dragonfire blast with a physical attack. Doesn’t (or didn’t, anyway) the NK have the ability to shatter conventional steel by touching it? Could he have had similar destructive abilities if he touched living flesh? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/515 "2019-04-30T21:26:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > As for the Night King being a Targaeryan because he could withstand fire. Nuts. Not when his clothes stayed whole without a touch of scorch marks. Dany, at least, emerged naked and covered in soot from her first fire. > > The NK survived because magic. The NK was killed because magic. Don’t waste time trying to rationalize magic. We haven’t been given the rules of GoT magic, and that’s clearly because the writers will use magic however and whenever they feel. Exactly. However, there are two ways to write magic - as a logical part of a consistent universe with known rules, or as a mysterious force that the writer can pull from his nethers whenever he needs to write himself out of a corner (see also: Trek-speak in _Star Trek_). Good magical stories are the former. You can tell that this episode was scripted by people who think visually. It was all about cool set pieces and visuals and big moments of heroism and near-death, and the writing suffered for it. When trading off realistic strategy and consequences for ‘cool’, cool wins every time if you are a TV guy. Especially on a show like this, with half the audience demanding a faithful adaptation and the other half demanding constant spectacle and big surprises and reveals. Sometimes a show or movie delivers both, and it becomes legendary. Game of Thrones may have just come screeching to a halt and become just another visual spectacle of cool scenes (see: any superhero movie of the past decade). It has three episodes left to correct this, though. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/516 "2019-04-30T21:30:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Jaqen H’ghar specifically says on the show that he worships ‘The Red God’. If he said that, it’s only because the Lord of Light is one of the aspects of the Many-faced God. > [@](#): > > Religion in Westeros is strange and hard to parse sometimes, but my understanding is that the Lord of Light IS the many-faced God. All the other Gods in the show are aspects of the LoL, or the Red God. And it’s clear which side the Lord of Light is on. You have that exactly backwards with respect to the beliefs of the Faceless Men. All other gods are aspects of the Many-faced God, which is Death, including the Lord of Light, Old Gods, Drowned God, and The Seven (specifically the aspect of The Stranger). Inside the House of Black and White we see symbols of all the gods, but the flaming heart symbolizing the Lord of Light has no special place and is just one of many. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/517 "2019-04-30T21:32:11Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > This episode included the second tragic name-origin story. First we had Hodor and “hold the door,” and this time it was Beric and his hallway beric-ade. Booooooooo ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/518 "2019-04-30T21:37:39Z")
I think it’s as simple as when Jaqen told Arya that she owed the Red God three deaths (he didn’t specifically say he worshiped the Red God, did he?), he was just pretending to be Jaqen from Lorath. Jaqen is just a face, and the person he was died when the faceless man took it. The faceless man is only pretending to be Jaqen, and claiming to worship the Red God is just part of keeping up the act. The real faceless man under Jaqen’s face worships the Many-Faced God of Death, of which the Lord of Light is just one small piece. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/519 "2019-04-30T21:41:37Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > - We thought the Night King must be Targaeryan, standing in the dragon fire like that. Hardly likely, since the Night King was created many thousands of years ago when the First Men first arrived in Westeros, and the Targaryens have been in Westeros only a few centuries. I don’t think the show is specific on this, but the Night King may predate the rise of Valyria itself. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190/520 "2019-04-30T21:46:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Doesn’t (or didn’t, anyway) the NK have the ability to shatter conventional steel by touching it? Could he have had similar destructive abilities if he touched living flesh? I’m pretty sure that we saw White Walkers touch people without damaging them by cold. The White Walker that Jon Snow ultimately killed with Longclaw at Hardhome tossed Jon around a few times and didn’t do any permanent damage to him. Another WW carried Craster’s baby to the NK without harming the baby…until the NK’s touch turned the baby into a WW. Hmmm… 😕 Regardless, since eliminating the NK was the only way to win the battle, it likely would have been worth the risk to Drogon for the chance to end the battle right right then and there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-03-the-long-night-4-28-19-show-discussion/833190.md?page=27)