# Game of Thrones 8.04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/2019 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524 "2019-05-05T20:44:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/181 "2019-05-06T17:10:51Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I may have missed something, but shouldn’t Euron be suspicious that Tyrion knows Cersei is pregnant? > > I was under the impression that the child is Jamie’s and Cersei has been pregnant long enough for Tyrion to figure out at their previous meeting. Euron could have only knocked her up a few weeks prior, right? > > And, why the hell wouldn’t the dragons fly at an altitude higher than the top of the ballista projectiles’ parabolic arc? I was wondering the same thing about Euron. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/182 "2019-05-06T17:25:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > His primary loyalty is to the realm, and the Targaryens were, until the Mad King’s last few years, pretty good for Westeros, all in all. In the show I don’t think we know much about Targaryen rule before Aerys. Still considering how nuts he was it would be a good idea to find out _something_ about his heirs before scheming for a restoration. Robert was shit, and Joffrey appeared to be an even worse option. But if they were seeking for an upgrade among known quantities then Renly would have been the best option. (Admittedly the “too gay to produce an heir” might have been a drawback.) > [@](#): > > her sole remaining dragon (whose name escapes me) It’s the easiest one of all. Drogon the dragon, named for Khal Drogo.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/183 "2019-05-06T17:46:22Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Dany begged Jon not to tell anyone his true origin - she might have \*ordered \*him. She’s his Queen, after all, as he keeps telling her. He ignored her. Jon was standing there as Arya and Sansa said, “You’re our brother.” The problem is that he’s so honest, he couldn’t let them continue to believe that when he know it’s not true and that they’re actually cousins. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/184 "2019-05-06T17:49:16Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I was wondering the same thing about Euron. This will have to come into play later, giving Euron a reason to doubt/betray Cercei. It’s not a coincidence that Tyrion played that card right after Euron was told it was his child. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/185 "2019-05-06T17:49:25Z")
> [@HammerJoe](#): > > What have they done to Tyrion character? > He has been reduced to a drunken idiot after building him up as mastermind all these seasons so whats the point of keeping him around? > Might as well have him killed in the crypt on episode 3. The whole Lord Gendry Baratheon scene would have worked perfectly if it had been Tyrion’s idea. The only change would have been Danerys telling Tyrion that she knows good advice when her Hand provides it. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/186 "2019-05-06T17:50:10Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m getting the feeling this one isn’t sticking the landing like _Breaking Bad_ did… My last, best hope is that they’ll stick the landing like The Shield did. Queen Daenerys of nothing and ashes, walking up to the throne over the corpses of Jon, Varys, Jaime, Arya, Grey Worm, Ser Davos and the Hound. In the audience, Gendry does not smile. Sansa does not blink. Tyrion does not laugh. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/187 "2019-05-06T18:05:45Z")
The good: - Pod being quietly awesome in the background. In ep. 2 he was nonchalantly kicking ass on the practice field while Brienne and Jamie did their awkward flirting. In ep. 4, during the feast he quietly pulled 2 serving girls and casually wandered off to show them why he doesn’t have to pay for it in King’s Landing. - It was sad watching Dany celebrate alone in a hall full of people. - The first thing Gendry does after he is made a noble and lord of Storm’s End is seek out Arya and ask her to marry him. He’s spends the entire series thinking she was too good for him and as soon as he has the bonafides he cuts right to the quick. Sadly, we know it will probably never work out because now she’s an unrepentant murder machine. - Tormund crying over Brienne to The Hound of all people. - Arya and The Hound ride again. Seriously, this is the buddy comedy we all need in our lives. One part moral philosophy and one part straight up murder. - The Starks and Targaryen’s ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED TO OWN PETS! You people just don’t know how to treat your animals right. I’ve spoken withDireWolfJesus and he is not amused. - Gray Worm, it’s not your fault Missandei got caught. Sending her to the life boat was the right thing to do, it just didn’t work out the way you expected. That being said, you have my permission to kill everyone in the Red Keep to get your revenge. Start with Greyjoy…Happy hunting! The bad is just too much to list in detail. Dumb tactics and strategy, again. Sansa running her mouth, again. Tyrion failing to live up to past seasons, again. Jamie doing dumb shit for Cersei, again. Euron pulling a nautical miracle out of his ass, again. The lack of intelligent, well thought out plots from the source material has really caused the last 2 seasons to depart from what has made this story so good for so long. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/188 "2019-05-06T18:08:24Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > The bad is just too much to list in detail. Dumb tactics and strategy, again. Sansa running her mouth, again. By Sansa running her mouth do you mean effectively undermining the person that continually threatens to subjugate her people? That wasn’t blabbing, but a measured decision on her part. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/189 "2019-05-06T18:11:49Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > We don’t know if Sam explained to Gilly what it meant that Rhaegar had married Lyanna. He didn’t know until Bran talked about Jon/Aegon being born. Ok. Given the explosiveness of the information, he might not have even told Gilly. So she’s probably not “in the know.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/190 "2019-05-06T18:11:53Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > I thought it was fucking hilarious how Jamie and Brienne were talking about the fire and level of heat in their room, it was totally the equivalent of an old married couple arguing about the thermostat. No, it was a total porn-setup scene. “It’s so hot in here. Are you hot? I’ll _say_ you are, baby. Here, lemme take this off…” > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > She does know a ‘back entrance’. Way back in Season 1, she go lost in the catacombs after overhearing the conversation between Varys and Iliyrio, only to finally make her way out of what looked to be a sewer outside the city… For that matter, Varys knows his way around the secret passages of KL. He might even still have some of his spy network to draw upon. > [@aurora\_maire](#): > > I think that Jaime needed to get out of there before he changed his mind, and said those things to Brienne to make her hate him and therefore easier for him to go. I don’t think he wants to save Cersei. He didn’t make the decision to go until Bronn told him Cersei wanted him dead and then heard that Cersei was winning. He thought she would die in the war but then realized that might not happen. So he has to make sure it does. He can’t be the good person Brienne believes he is until he settles that score… This. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > …Bronn was promised a castle - he almost married the dimwitted girl and murdered her older sister - when Jamie pulled him out of that, with the promise of a bigger reward. Later, Jaime gave him a bag of gold - which was a great reward, but not the castle he was promised - and in any case the gold was lost during the battle of the loot train. So Bronn has been working for years and risking his life for the Lannisters and has very little to show about it. And now that he’s been recruited once again by a Lannister to do evil - “this fuckin family”, it’s plausible that he just wants to be done with them and fucking finally cash out. And this. The scene with Bronn and the two Lannister brothers was actually maybe my favorite of the entire episode. > [@clairobscur](#): > > …I was a bit hit by the opening scene. I found the scene were the main characters are saying their good byes to their fallen companions uncomfortably realistic, both the corpses and the attitude of the mourners. Reminded me too much of actual funerals… Yes. Trying to figure out what Dany whispered to Ser Friendzone’s corpse might become as much of a parlor game as it did for the final scene of _Lost in Translation_. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/191 "2019-05-06T18:13:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I thought it was very interesting that Gendry was announced to the world as a Baratheon and made a Lord. I think this really opens the door to a situation where there is a bloodbath at the end, and ultimately Gendry Baratheon takes the throne. Whether that will happen or not, I don’t know. But the stage is certainly set, with a new Baratheon on the scene and out of the way while everyone else goes to war. That seems like it would be extremely out of character for the show. If Arya hadn’t shut him down, then _maybe_. To the extent that Game of Thrones is about answering [Varys’s riddle](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pxSRa5KRKc) about who holds power, Gendry is not reasonably in the running. Gendry now has the Baratheon name, but nothing else. He has no loyal underlings, no army. The Baratheons already fought a 3-sided war against themselves before any of the other wars got going. There can’t possibly be any left. He has no guile. No ambition. No understanding of how the Game of Thrones is played. If he holds Storm’s End, it will be entirely as the dependent vassal of Dany, which is just what she wants. That scene was just about Dany being a shrewd ruler falling into the same patterns that tyrants have always ruled with. Cement your power by handing out spoils to those loyal to you. It’s also nice that it reinforces her power to do so, and heralds a return to the pre-Robert’s Rebellion state. The place for a Baratheon is in Storm’s End. Here’s the closest thing we have to a Baratheon, so that’s where he goes. And it also gave Gendry the chance to get shot down by Arya. I actually really liked Bronn in this episode, after some consideration. He’s moving up the ladder in terms of the riddle. He’s realized that you don’t become a noble by being a really good sellsword. You become a noble by convincing other people to do your work for you, under threat of violence. Much better to just threaten the powerful directly than to do their bidding. I see Jaime’s behavior as totally in character for his arc. I agree that he isn’t going back to be by Cersei’s side, and that his tearful departure was about feeling that he was a bad person unworthy of love and happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/192 "2019-05-06T18:22:08Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > I was really, really disappointed in the way Ghost was treated. I understand that the CGI for the direwolves was very difficult to pull off but was there no way to just show a hand ruffling his fur? It was totally out of character for Jon to just leave him that way, especially since they showed that he had been hurt in the fight. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yeah. It’s like none of the writers ever had a dog. No way would you just give a nod to your faithful dog and then leave, possibly to never see him again. > > My biggest disappointment overall for the TV series was their minimizing the dire wolves in the story. We may not have seen the last of Ghost. Just because Jon told him to go north with Tormund doesn’t mean he did so. And don’t forget that Nymeria is still alive and well. Ghost, Nymeria, and the rest of her wolfpack would make a formidable ally in the final battle. Maybe the Hound will be saved by wolves? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/193 "2019-05-06T18:29:33Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yes. Trying to figure out what Dany whispered to Ser Friendzone’s corpse might become as much of a parlor game as it did for the final scene of _Lost in Translation_. “I’ll never have another friend as dear as you.” ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/194 "2019-05-06T18:35:45Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > By Sansa running her mouth do you mean effectively undermining the person that continually threatens to subjugate her people? > > That wasn’t blabbing, but a measured decision on her part. Once upon a time Sansa was told privileged information about her family and their plans and she ran off and told the first Lannister who would listen. This was a measured decision on her part and it resulted in Ned Stark getting his head chopped off. Once again, Sansa is told privileged information about her family and once again she makes the measured decision to run off and tell the first Lannister who will listen. I don’t know what the results will be but my money says somebodies gonna die because this information wasn’t properly controlled. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/195 "2019-05-06T18:37:45Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > We may not have seen the last of Ghost. Just because Jon told him to go north with Tormund doesn’t mean he did so. > > And don’t forget that Nymeria is still alive and well. Ghost, Nymeria, and the rest of her wolfpack would make a formidable ally in the final battle. Maybe the Hound will be saved by wolves? God, I hope those stupid animals don’t show up anymore. They are just background characters like most of the actual humans on the show. I’m not sure why everyone is so up in arms about them all the time. Personally, I hope Potpie shows up and saves the Hound. He has done as much as any of the wolves have done. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/196 "2019-05-06T18:41:08Z")
A lot of the complaints seem to boil down to, “Why do these characters have such big flaws!” Jon is honest to a fault, like literally a fault. Dany is often good at staged, overwhelming ambushes that reverse power dynamics, but is impulsive and panicky and ragey in the heat of the moment. Jamie is brilliant but self-loathing and self-destructive. Sansa has lived in the shadow of some of the shittiest backbiters and schemers and liars in the kingdom, and falls into similar habits. These flaws are character flaws, not show flaws. And when a character acts according to their flaws, that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. Other flaws, like terrible battle tactics planned out by supposedly brilliant tacticians, are less forgiveable. But I realized something and I would feel like an idiot for not thinking of it earlier, except apparently nobody else has thought of it either. The reason Dany didn’t see the ships isn’t that they motored into view so quickly and fired before she noticed: it’s because her dragon was going so fast. If Euron had intelligence about their arrival, he could have stationed his fleet on the far side of an island anticipating that she’d scout and fly over a cliff, and that he’d be able to fire on her within seconds of her coming into view. Maybe the shot-dragon came into view before hers did, explaining the suddenness of the shot. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/197 "2019-05-06T18:41:13Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Once upon a time Sansa was told privileged information about her family and their plans and she ran off and told the first Lannister who would listen. This was a measured decision on her part and it resulted in Ned Stark getting his head chopped off. > > Once again, Sansa is told privileged information about her family and once again she makes the measured decision to run off and tell the first Lannister who will listen. I don’t know what the results will be but my money says somebodies gonna die because this information wasn’t properly controlled. Yeah, and if it’s Dany, then that’s good for Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/198 "2019-05-06T18:48:49Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, and if it’s Dany, then that’s good for Sansa. And if it’s Jon? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/199 "2019-05-06T18:50:08Z")
Winterfell may be a cold and brutal place, [but at least it has a Starbucks.](https://pmcvariety.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-starbucks-coffee-cup.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/200 "2019-05-06T18:51:08Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Winterfell may be a cold and brutal place, [but at least it has a Starbucks.](https://pmcvariety.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-starbucks-coffee-cup.jpg) You mean Starkbucks. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=11)