# Game of Thrones 8.04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/2019 \[Show discussion\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524 "2019-05-05T20:44:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/201 "2019-05-06T18:55:16Z")
Something that occurred to me last night is the array of funeral pyres at the opening of the episode must have consumed most of a forest. It’s almost a big “fuck you” to the Children of the Forest. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/202 "2019-05-06T18:56:22Z")
If Jon and Daenerys and Cersei all die in the upcoming battle, does that leave Tyrion next in line for the Iron Throne? Would Westeros accept the Imp? He’d be the best ruler from the crop of potentials I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/203 "2019-05-06T18:56:36Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Trying to figure out what Dany whispered to Ser Friendzone’s corpse might become as much of a parlor game as it did for the final scene of _Lost in Translation_. Maybe it’ll be close to the final four words of Gilmore Girls: [spoiler] > [@](#): > > “Mom.” > “Yeah?” > “I’m pregnant.” If that’s what Dany was saying, she might have added something about naming the baby “Jorah,” and left out the “Mom” stuff.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/204 "2019-05-06T18:58:11Z")
I didn’t like this episode all that much, and find a lot of aspects of it puzzling. 1. The distances and times start to make very little sense, in part because so much has to happen so quickly. How long are they saying it’s gonna take for Jon and the army to get to King’s Landing? That’s a LONG way - Wsteros is a continent, not an island. 2500-2800 kilometres, according to most estimates. Realistically, it takes three months to march an army that far, assuming consistent supply and no one trying to stop them. 2. So, uh, why did Cersei not just kill Daenerys, Tyrion, et al. when they were standing there in plain view of ballista and archer fire? We saw the ballistas blow ships apart much further away than that. Seriously, she had the war won right there. The crown was in her hand and she just didn’t take it? What the fuck? If your fanwank is that Westeros has some ultra-not-to-be-broken rule about killing an envoy, why’ve we never heard of the importance of that rule before, especially when Cersei, the most evil person competing for the throne, can win everything by breaking it? That was an ATROCIOUS scene, one that seemed to serve no purpose except to give torture porn fans something to watch when Missandei got killed. Her own father broke a rule that actually has been mentioned before, and shrugged it off by quite reasonably pointing out that war is a bitch and anyway it probably saved lives. Instead, she murders Missandei - a move that serves no purpose and if anything is to her disadvantage. Missandei is emotionally important to Daenerys and Grey Worm, but her murder serves no strategic benefit to Cersei and if anything just means she is short a useful hostage. 1. So how did they spell Daenerys’s name on her double latte? Donairis Danneres Dennis Debbie Dorcas 1. Seeing Brienne reduced to a blubbering mess in her housecoat over a man leaving just did not seem like a dignified scene for that character. The parts of the episode I liked were basically all the obvious tension between the major players. There really is no resolution between the objectives of Daenerys and Sansa; Daenerys insists the North be a part of her kingdom, and Sansa insists it not, and they’re only allies as long as someone more dangerous exists. It is, frankly, extremely unlikely that the other kingdoms/regions will be all that enthusiastic about Queen Daenerys I once the loathsome Cersei is gone. Anything could happen but it seems to me we’ve got three major possibilities: 1. Jon dies or retreats to Winterfell or the Wall; Daenerys is Queen. 2. Daenerys dies; Jon becomes King Aegon VI. 3. The Seven Kingdoms is no longer a single state; it breaks up, probably with Daenerys as Queen of the central part or as a loose ceremonial monarch. Various characters become the new monarchs of the constituent kingdoms. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/205 "2019-05-06T19:00:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Bronn is counting on them feeling bound by “A Lannister pays his debts.” The Lannisters are pretty dishonorable but they do seem to feel bound by this one. I think sometimes we forget that medieval era norms (which I know this is fantasy, but it’s similar enough) are not the same as ours. Guest right and parley rights are sacrosanct (which is why the Red Wedding would have been a horrible transgression - remember when Tywin visits the Freys afterwards and while he orchestrates it, he’s kind of put off by the Freys for actually doing it, and of course Cat is adamant with Robb that if he takes the salt from the Freys he’ll be safe). And your word means something far more. So Jon asking for Sansa and Arya to swear and Bronn taking Tyrion at her word is considered something perfectly normal. Whereas now, it’s no big deal to give someone your word and then lie. > [@](#): > > :smack:Right. So actually nine people know, not eight. But Tyrion has no reason to know that Gilly knows. It’s more likely that Jon told Sansa that Danaerys knows than that he told her that Gilly knows too. Remember Bran told Sansa, not Jon. And Bran is like a living encyclopedia. I wouldn’t put it past Bran to tell Sansa and Arya about Gilly stumbling on it. Bran also may not know that Dany didn’t want Jon to tell them. Although we don’t know if Jon jumped in at all… so who really knows. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/206 "2019-05-06T19:01:30Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > And if it’s Jon? Honestly, that would be the best for everyone. His birth precludes any future for him other than ruling or death, and he’d be a shitty ruler. Jon’s an idiot if he thinks 6 people can keep a secret, if he didn’t want anyone to know he always could have kept his mouth shut. Sansa’s just getting out ahead of it and trying to use that information to advance her interest rather than Jon’s “golly gee, it’ll work out just fine if I stick my head in the sand” plan of action. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/207 "2019-05-06T19:02:24Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > If Jon and Daenerys and Cersei all die in the upcoming battle, does that leave Tyrion next in line for the Iron Throne? Would Westeros accept the Imp? He’d be the best ruler from the crop of potentials I can think of. Gendry, probably, now that he’s been “legitimized” as Robert Baratheon’s son. But that’s only in the eyes of people who follow Dany and Jon. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/208 "2019-05-06T19:04:59Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > If Jon and Daenerys and Cersei all die in the upcoming battle, does that leave Tyrion next in line for the Iron Throne? Would Westeros accept the Imp? He’d be the best ruler from the crop of potentials I can think of. Is Cersei on the throne ostensibly as a Barratheon? If so, then Gendry would be next I think. If she’s on it as a Lannister, then it would be Jaime then Tyrion. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/209 "2019-05-06T19:05:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Anything could happen but it seems to me we’ve got three major possibilities: > > 1. Jon dies or retreats to Winterfell or the Wall; Daenerys is Queen. > 2. Daenerys dies; Jon becomes King Aegon VI. > 3. The Seven Kingdoms is no longer a single state; it breaks up, probably with Daenerys as Queen of the central part or as a loose ceremonial monarch. Various characters become the new monarchs of the constituent kingdoms. Daenerys uses dragonfire to melt down the Throne of Swords, institutes a republic council of peers and rules as regent instead of He Who Should Have Been King. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/210 "2019-05-06T19:05:29Z")
theres a ton of fan pushback on how and “the only black character on got” died … [https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/game-of-thrones-why-fans-are-livid-over-the-latest-death/ar-AAAYCgs](https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/game-of-thrones-why-fans-are-livid-over-the-latest-death/ar-AAAYCgs) ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/211 "2019-05-06T19:09:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Jon has several problems, but none of them are unsurmountable, as long as he has good advisors. > > Dany is perilously approaching Mad King levels of unsuitability. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Jon ignores good advice all the time because he thinks honor demands it. He’s completely intellectually unsound for the job and lacks the flexibility needed. > > Just this episode he gets wonderful advice that would allow him to accomplish his goals and the goals of his self-professed queen. He undermines it at the first opportunity. > > Jon would get played in the capital worse than Ned ever did. > > _eta_ But yeah, if you think the choice is Jon or Dany and you assume Dany will torture to death anyone she thinks opposes her, then go with Jon. I’m just saying those are both shitty options. I think the question “Choose Your Ruler: Jon or Dany?” is interesting. Me, I go with Dany. I think she’s sincerely a political revolutionary (within her sociopolitical context!), and think her effectiveness at “breaking the wheel” – at likely great cost – is a gamble worth taking. Yeah, her desire to defeat Cersei and seize the throne is emotionally driven, but she’s no mad king: Cersei not only deserves to be defeated, but _needs to be defeated_. Jon is a great role model – and totally feckless. More importantly, he’s really bad at considering utilitarian ethical considerations. Like real-world politics, this stuff is complicated, and i’m being a bit more didactic than I would be if this stuff was real. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/212 "2019-05-06T19:11:18Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Honestly, that would be the best for everyone. His birth precludes any future for him other than ruling or death, and he’d be a shitty ruler. > > Jon’s an idiot if he thinks 6 people can keep a secret, if he didn’t want anyone to know he always could have kept his mouth shut. Sansa’s just getting out ahead of it and trying to use that information to advance her interest rather than Jon’s “golly gee, it’ll work out just fine if I stick my head in the sand” plan of action. At this point in the show they’re ALL to stupid to rule and none of the major players have my endorsement. The seriously sad and fucked up fact is, over the course of this story, Cersei has brought more stability and peace to Westeros than all the other contenders combined. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/213 "2019-05-06T19:12:30Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Gendry, probably, now that he’s been “legitimized” as Robert Baratheon’s son. But that’s only in the eyes of people who follow Dany and Jon. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Is Cersei on the throne ostensibly as a Barratheon? If so, then Gendry would be next I think. If she’s on it as a Lannister, then it would be Jaime then Tyrion. Gendry doesn’t have the political juice to be king, but he is a fan favorite who’s on good terms with (almost) all the major players in Westeros. So they may go with a _bastard blacksmith helps save the world and becomes king of the Seven Kingdoms_ story, and that’s a nice fairy tale. Didn’t Jaime renounce any claims at some point? Jon did, for sure, but I guess that dying and coming back to life gives him a blank slate again. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/214 "2019-05-06T19:16:57Z")
Here’s a question I would like someone to ask Dany (Tyrion should have done so seasons ago). What does “breaking the wheel” mean? Ruling because your father was king is breaking the wheel? The North choose their own ruler and independence. Telling them to bend the knee or you’ll murder them all is breaking the wheel? It seems to me that breaking the wheel would be to break down the monarchy itself. Impose a different for of government that gave the peasantry a larger role in how they’re ruled. However, Dany’s actions do no support anything so radical, it’s just a different person ruling. If by breaking the wheel she meant the Targaryen dynast as unquestioned rulers in perpetuity, well, that’s less magnanimous than she lets on. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/215 "2019-05-06T19:17:21Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > theres a ton of fan pushback on how and “the only black character on got” died … > > [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/game-of-thrones-why-fans-are-livid-over-the-latest-death/ar-AAAYCgs) I think the linked article’s headline is designed to provoke back-and-forth outrage. The linked article had a few tweets as sources, and that’s it. Race in Game of Thrones is an interesting and fraught topic, and it’s worth keeping in mind how this is a show starring white actors, pretty much – but is there “a ton of fan pushback?” Let’s not sensationalize. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/216 "2019-05-06T19:19:31Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Here’s a question I would like someone to ask Dany (Tyrion should have done so seasons ago). What does “breaking the wheel” mean? > > Ruling because your father was king is breaking the wheel? The North choose their own ruler and independence. Telling them to bend the knee or you’ll murder them all is breaking the wheel? > > It seems to me that breaking the wheel would be to break down the monarchy itself. Impose a different for of government that gave the peasantry a larger role in how they’re ruled. However, Dany’s actions do no support anything so radical, it’s just a different person ruling. If by breaking the wheel she meant the Targaryen dynast as unquestioned rulers in perpetuity, well, that’s less magnanimous than she lets on. They haven’t invented Marxism\* in Westeros yet. They’re still thinking about “good leaders” as being “leaders who aren’t sadistic rapists/slavers/sociopaths.” ETA: \*or classical liberalism, or the social contract, or separation of powers, or proportional representation, or… ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/217 "2019-05-06T19:19:54Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Gendry doesn’t have the political juice to be king, but he is a fan favorite who’s on good terms with (almost) all the major players in Westeros. So they may go with a _bastard blacksmith helps save the world and becomes king of the Seven Kingdoms_ story, and that’s a nice fairy tale. > > Didn’t Jaime renounce any claims at some point? Jon did, for sure, but I guess that dying and coming back to life gives him a blank slate again. Jaime gave up any titles as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard before being removed by the Faith of the Seven, but does being removed from your sworn position eliminate the sworn oath - unless a King or Queen allows it? I wouldn’t think so. I think Gendry probably has a better claim than Tyrion. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/218 "2019-05-06T19:21:53Z")
The actor who plays Jaime tells us what the character might be thinking… and teaches us some Danish slang!: [Game of Thrones Star Nikolaj Coster-Waldau Explains Jaime’s Baffling Choice | Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-why-jaime-leaves-brienne-for-cersei-kill-her-nikolaj-interview) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/219 "2019-05-06T19:27:28Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > They haven’t invented Marxism in Westeros yet. They’re still thinking about “good leaders” as being “leaders who aren’t sadistic rapists/slavers/sociopaths.” Then Robert was a good leader, but Dany still wanted to kill him. So breaking the wheel just means being a better ruler than Cersei? Do you think that’s what Tyrion thought Dany meant? Seems clear she thinks of herself as more than just a conqueror, but there’s no indication of what her ruling philosophy is other than “bend the knee or my barbarian horde will murder you.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524/220 "2019-05-06T19:29:58Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Remember Bran told Sansa, not Jon. And Bran is like a living encyclopedia. I wouldn’t put it past Bran to tell Sansa and Arya about Gilly stumbling on it. Bran also may not know that Dany didn’t want Jon to tell them. Although we don’t know if Jon jumped in at all… so who really knows. The real issue is not how many people actually know, but who Tyrion was thinking of when he said eight people know, and what that means. Sansa would have told him that she, Jon, Bran, and Arya knew, and when he asked how they knew would have also mentioned Sam as well as Bran. Tyrion told Varys, so that’s seven. Whether or not Danaerys knows is extremely significant, while whether or not Gilly knows is totally irrelevant. If Tyrion was counting Gilly among the eight, then he thinks Danaerys doesn’t know, and that would surely have come into play in his conversation with Varys. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-8-04-the-last-of-the-starks-5-5-2019-show-discussion/833524.md?page=12)